Eternal Recompense Fact or Fiction?
Is the idea of eternal recompense fact or fiction? Would God eternally punish...
Find out more by entering this lively debate with those that support Annihilationism, Soul Death, Soul Sleep, and Universal Salvation, verses what Orthodox Christianity has to say on the subject of eternity and everlasting recompense. Learn if the reality of Hell and everlasting punishment is real verses those bent on ignoring Christ’s own words on this very subject.
This debate began several months ago…During the course of the debate two people recanted their beliefs in the doctrine of ‘Soul Sleep’ and ‘Annihilationism.’ Find out whom in Post 11.
Post 2 through 10 revolves around combating the errors of the ‘Soul Sleep’ and ‘Annihilationisms’ doctrines. Post 13 onward switch to debating ‘Annihilationisms Soul Death’ concept and Universalism. May sincere Christians who find themselves at odds against these doctrines learn from this debate how to answer the criticisms imposed by the adherents of ‘Soul Sleep, Annihilationism,’ and ‘Universalism.’
…Too find out more - read comments section…
posted by B. W. Melvin | Friday, February 29, 2008
19 Comments:
Is the idea of eternal recompense fact or fiction? Would God eternally punish human beings for finite sins? Would eternal non-existence be fair? What of soul sleep? Would some form of universal salvation be better way to prove God’s love?
These questions have been posed to me by several people over the past few months in open debate. I am including these here as the questions they posed may help sincere Christians battle these doctorial errors as well as help believers understand that when Jesus speaks of eternal punishment – he means just that – it is everlasting!
I will post their questions they themselves have asked me when challenging the orthodox Christian position concerning Hell and eternity. The names of those that debated me have been changed and will be identified with new names.
Somehow I accidentally posted a first draft and deleted this for reediting – so please bear with me as I add their questions per reedit. The first few questions will be from Ms Jill, Mr. Frank, and Mr. Wheeler.
I will post their questions – arguments for ‘Soul Sleep, Soul Death, Annihilationism, Universal Salvation, and post my response to them from the orthodox Christian position concerning eternity and recompense. The reader may find themselves challenged and at times provoked to think for themselves. Read slow…Ponder hard…
Meet the first protagonist in the discussion, Ms Jill
Ms Jill is a person who believes in Soul Sleep and Conditional Annihilationism. Soul Sleep is the teaching that when one dies, they sleep in the grave oblivious to all, that no judgment happens that sends one to either heaven or hell immediately after death, that those sleeping in the grave will awake at the last judgment during what is commonly known in Christendom as the resurrection of the dead. After this, people will be judged and sentenced to either everlasting life with Christ or temporary punishment in hell before being annihilated into a state of non-existence because God’s love could not possibly punish anyone forever as annihilation is viewed as an act of mercy.
With this Ms Jill writes and begins the debate along with a Mr. Frank who is an honest Christian who seeks an honest answer regarding God punishing forever and why…
Ms Jill writes and stated - No, God never ceases to be loving and merciful. The idea of a hell where sinners burn forever is silly and is nowhere backed up in scripture. However, hell is real, but the ones thrown in hell will simply burn up and be gone forever. This IS backed up by scripture.
Mr. Frank responds - I have always believed in the doctrine of a conscious burning hell for sinners because that is what I have always been taught. I never have completely understood it however. Why would a loving God who's mercy endures forever subject one of His creatures to unending torment in hell for a sin nature passed down because of someone else transgression, or even for a lifetime of sin. This seems like overkill to me. What of loving our enemies? Does God cease to be loving and merciful after a sinner dies in his sin? I fully realize that we can see this doctrine in the scriptures. I just do not understand it?
I wrote in response in frame below:
I wrote in response to Ms Jill and Mr. Frank’s comments above: Regarding your statement, Jill, that the idea of a hell where sinners burn forever is silly and is nowhere backed up in scripture and also to help clarify for Mr. Frank and answer his honest inquiry:
Jill, God granted the gift of life to humanity - as we live - saint or sinner - this spirit of life is his and gives us our being. It is a demonstration of mercy and love that he does not annihilate into non-existence but rather instead grants those that reject him a place they chose. Romans 1:20, Romans 2:2-11
The bible declares in Job 34:14-15 that this is true: "If he should set his heart to it and gather to himself his spirit and his breath, 15 all flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust." ESV
It is his breath of life he gives. You have life on loan from God. What will you or I do with it?
I understand how you feel about people being in eternal torment forever for finite sins but what of God’s position on this matter and his perspective? His mercy and love is far above our moral and mortal comprehension. You compare finite sins being punished forever rather as extreme ‘overkill’ but is it really when in fact, in eternity, these little sins lead to ruin in perpetuity if not contained Matthew 5:21-48, Mark 9:42-50? So to annihilate according to your view as fairer but would this not violate God’s own gift and word he promises to keep? [And - Yes Jill Jesus says Hell is eternal as well as the punishment – the bible does so teach this see the bible links.]
Romans 11:29, “For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable...” To annihilate into non-being would make God a hypocrite about this. That is why it is his will for eternal punishment which is fair and just recompenses never ending. To allow these the benefit of annihilation would in essence prove these got away with sin. A place of containment is more merciful than that of extinction, no matter how everlasting the ruin.
If one rejects the Lord, he rejects them. Fair is fair. If one rejects him in this life what makes you think in eternity they would not continue to abuse the goodness of God? How can God be true to his own Goodness if he annihilates? Rather would not Goodness design a place of containment to contain evil where it can run amuck and burn freely, revealing the ruin one chose instead of God?
God does all he can to keep a person from going into the eternal pit of ruin, in fact thrice with a man. Despite this, you still call God unjust, unkind, unloving, not merciful to send off the rejecters to eternal recompense?
Job 33:26-32, “…Then man prays to God, and he [God] accepts him; he [this man] sees his [God’s] face with a shout of joy, and he [God] restores to man his righteousness. 27 He [the man] sings before men and says: 'I sinned and perverted what was right, and it was not repaid to me. 28 He [God] has redeemed my soul from going down into the pit, and my life shall look upon the light.' 29 "Behold, God does all these things, twice, three times, with a man, 30 to bring back his soul from the pit, that he may be lighted with the light of life. 31 Pay attention, O Job, listen to me; be silent, and I will speak. 32 If you have any words, answer me; speak, for I desire to justify you.33 If not, listen to me; be silent, and I will teach you wisdom. ” ESV
What proves mercy true – a life sentence or extinction? What demonstrates love’s reality - a life sentence or extinction? What express honest goodness - a life sentence or extinction? What do you deserve - a life sentence or extinction?
And - Jill - you still want to call God’s eternal recompense unfair?
Ms Jill Fires Back and writes her point of view below and states her case as...
First, I never called God's recompense "unfair". That was YOUR words, not mine. YOU are the one who is twisting scripture here. It is funny how you keep on supplying the same scriptures over and over, even when they have been explained. Get your facts straight. There is NOWHERE in the bible that says sinners will burn forever. NOWHERE. However, there is PLENTY of scripture that says otherwise.
Instead, the bible says when you die you go to sleep in the ground and that is it. Paul says those that have fallen asleep. Daniel 12 says them that sleep in the dust of the earth. There is no such thing as continuing on in some form of afterlife in heaven or hell immediately after you die. Instead you go to sleep with no conscious awareness at all, the body decays, and only at the end time resurrection of the dead, God awakens the dead where those that know God enter into everlasting life and those that reject God are not punished forever but are annihilated into non-being as that is God’s mercy at work. God does not torture in any extreme overkill in a place called hell – don’t be silly.
Ok, B.W. Melvin Stop and think for a minute. Here is my point - Read this quote carefully. John 3:16 states "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have ever-lasting life". Is this truly a statement about hell everlasting? Just think about it. This verse plainly states "should not perish but have ever-lasting life". Clearly this is not talking about an everlasting hell, because if it were, then the person in hell would still have "everlasting life"! But it plainly says they SHOULD NOT PERISH. Further, on the subject of whether the soul can die, read Matthew 10:28. "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to KILL the soul, but rather fear Him which IS ABLE to destroy both soul and body in hell." According to this verse, souls can be destroyed. Also, notice Psalm 146:4. "His spirit departs, he returns to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish". Also, Ecc. 9:5. "for the living know they shall die, but the dead know NOTHING". Clearly there is no hell where the dead are tormented forever. To further examine what hell REALLY is, read Revelation 20:10. "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone.." This is not an "everlasting hell" as many are led to believe. This is a localized lake of fire that long precedes the ULTIMATE lake of fire to engulf the whole earth 1,100 years LATER, before the new heavens and new earth arrive. (Rev. 20:14, 15, 21:8, 21:1)
My response to Ms Jill in next frame posted below…
I wrote in response to Ms Jill's comments from the frame above:
My apologies if I offended you Ms Jill, So I'll approach this another way...
It is predicable that many would attempt to make the message of an eternal hell more palatable to the human psyche. Soul sleep, limited punishment, or annihilation is seen as a healthy more humane treatment of the doctrine of hell. Thus many restructure biblical word meanings, misquote myriads of bible passages, in order to justify assuaging the human soul with non-threatening softness.
Those that attempt to re-translate and reshape the doctrine of hell to fit a more humane world view need to ask some serious question regarding their doctrine. For example regarding all the varied doctrines of soul sleep, these basically teach in varied forms that after a person dies they fade into some type of restful sleep like the slumber of the dead where the dead feel nothing, hear nothing, taste nothing, and see nothing. In other words, immediately after dying a person just sleeps in a state of dark nothingness.
According to this view, a person who dies does not instantly enter either heaven or hell or experience judgment of any kind and any scripture that speaks otherwise is simply explained and opined away in appeals to assuage human flesh. After this sleep state the dead are suddenly awakened in some distant future to be judged where some will enter heaven and others a lake of fire either consisting of temporary punishment, or annihilation into non-existence, or even eternal torment. This is proof text by misinterpretation of scripture such as Daniel 12.
The problem with such soul sleep doctrines is that these cannot be reconciled to the basic law of contradiction used to determine the true from the false. If something is true that means there is an opposite that is false. The bible clearly teaches that after ones dies then comes instant judgment by God which determines ones eternal destiny in either the bliss of heaven or the punishment of hell. In either of these states people are awake and conscious and are not asleep in the slumber of death.
Those that hold any of the varied views of soul sleep need to question their doctrine and stop attempting to bend God’s Word to the will of man.
It is you who hold the doctrines of soul sleep that will have to explain away the meanings of these verses:
Revelations 20:12-13, “And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.”
Now note that Death and Hades gave up their dead. Now who were those mentioned being in Hades? Isaiah 24:21-23 begins to reveal who: “On that day the LORD will punish the host of heaven, in heaven, and the kings of the earth, on the earth. 22 They will be gathered together as prisoners in a pit; they will be shut up in a prison, and after many days they will be punished. 23 Then the moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed, for the LORD of hosts reigns on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and his glory will be before his elders.”
Note that God gathers those from the pit, who are shut up in a prison and who after many days spent where – in a prison – a pit – will receive their final sentence and punishment.
Now turn to Psalms 9: 17 as it too reveals who is in Hades: “The wicked shall return to Sheol, all the nations that forget God.” It does not say Lake of fire but Sheol – the prison… the pit…Hades…hell. This is the prison that the dead are shut up in mentioned in Isaiah 24:23. [Note - the pit, Sheol, is also at times called the grave and even Hades in the LXX]
Isaiah 24:23 describes something familiar to the western criminal justice system. The bad guys are arrested and held in a place of collection and after a while they receive a hearing then a final sentence in the future where they serve out the rest of their sentence somewhere else beside the holding facility. This is what Isaiah is revealing and this also line up with Revelations chapter 20’s theme.
Don’t believe me? Think that those mentioned in Hades are just sleeping unaware until the time of the white throne judgment then read:
Isaiah 38:17-18, “Behold, it was for my welfare that I had great bitterness; but in love you have delivered my life from the pit of destruction, for you have cast all my sins behind your back. 18 For Sheol does not thank you; death does not praise you; those who go down to the pit do not hope for your faithfulness.”
Those down in the pit ‘do not hope’ and to 'do not hope’ describes a state of conscious being. A state of sleep of nothingness cannot define a state of being without hope. Being without hope is a living emotion. To have emotions means you are alive and conscious of the fact that those in Sheol have no hope for God’s faithfulness as they missed God’s salvation of casting away the sins of them that believe in him. Those that missed this, the wicked experience no more hope. This describes consciousness.
A person being awake and conscious in hell and the afterlife is furthered explained in Isaiah 57:20-21, “But the wicked are like the tossing sea; for it cannot be quiet, and its waters toss up mire and dirt. 21 There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked."
In slumber of soul sleep it is usually taught as consisting of peace, rest, non-knowing, and unconscious but the bible does not teach this; instead, “There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked."
Now before you holler and say this is not true and cannot possibly mean that immediately after death judgment and punishment in Sheol, hell, the pit comes. Hmmm read - Isaiah 55:11, “so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.”
Note Ecc 3:14 it states: “I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him.” And again in Ecc 3:17-19: “ I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every work. 18 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts."
None Righteous - no not one: remember who said that?
There is no rest for the wicked anywhere on earth or in hell, the prison, this pit will give up its dead for the final reckoning. In this pit, these will have NO REST. Just as Peter describes: 2 Peter 2:9, “…The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment.”
Note what this verse says - The unrighteous will be kept under punishment, where they have no rest – no sleep! As it is written there is no rest for the wicked. You who disagree have a lot to explain away as it plainly states that the Lord knows how to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment. Since the bible states clearly they’ll be kept in punishment until the final day of judgment, such person’s are conscious and awake experiencing this and not asleep. Just as Jesus stated 'Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched,' Mark 9:48.
You also have to explain away Ezekiel 32 because those there in the pit are described as awake, conscious, seeing and speaking. What I write lines up with Luke 16 parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Those of you that disagree, your doctrine-does not line up with what Jesus said as well as the Father. Instead your doctrine lines up with the way of the world.
Why would God say there is no rest for the wicked and that he knows how to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment if he were to let the dead sleep peacefully unaware of anything, then wake them up to toss them into a lake of fire of annihilation for a little temporary punishment and then into a state of non-existence? There is no rest for the wicked says the Lord. Likewise there is no soul sleep in any form as it would make God violate his own word.
Next, you that disagree will have to answer to this:
Revelation 7:9, 13-14, “After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?" 14 I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
Funny how that the judgments and resurrections mentioned in Revelation 20 had not happened at this point so who are these people? How could they be there in heaven since according to your doctrines of soul sleep these should all be asleep in the grave till the final trump sounds! However, they are in Heaven before it sounds! You who hold the doctrines of soul sleep do not have answers for these scriptures as these point to a time after death and these prove both the godly and ungodly dead are conscious, spiritually alive, awake and not sleeping the slumber of death before the final judgment.
What of Luke 16:22-24, “The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'”
The angels carried the poor man away when - At the end of time or instantly? Sounds like both were very much awake and eternally alive as God places eternity in the heart and what he does he does forever. The gifts are callings of God are irrevocable.
What about Psalms 49:7-15-20, “Truly no man can ransom another, or give to God the price of his life, 8 for the ransom of their life is costly and can never suffice, 9 that he should live on forever and never see the pit. [Note: this should clue you in to whom Jesus is as only God can save – not man]. 10 For he sees that even the wise die; the fool and the stupid alike must perish and leave their wealth to others. 11 Their graves are their homes forever, their dwelling places to all generations, though they called lands by their own names. 12 Man in his pomp will not remain; he is like the beasts that perish. 13 This is the path of those who have foolish confidence; yet after them people approve of their boasts. Selah 14 Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol; death shall be their shepherd, and the upright shall rule over them in the morning. Their form shall be consumed [this word means to wear out by toil] in Sheol, with no place to dwell. 15 But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me. Selah - 16 Be not afraid when a man becomes rich, when the glory of his house increases. 17 For when he dies he will carry nothing away; his glory will not go down after him. 18 For though, while he lives, he counts himself blessed --and though you get praise when you do well for yourself-- 19 his soul will go to the generation of his fathers, who will never again see light. 20 Man in his pomp yet without understanding is like the beasts that perish.”
Ecc 3:21-22, “Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth? 22, “So I saw that there is nothing better than that a man should rejoice in his work, for that is his lot. Who can bring him to see what will be after him?” [note - Jesus can! And does!]
Next how about these verses and what they reveal:
Matthew 12:43, "When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, but finds none. “
Zechariah 9:11, “As for you also, because of the blood of my covenant with you, I will set your prisoners free from the waterless pit.” [The pit is describe hot, dry, waterless, and also as place of flames in Luke 16 account]
Matthew 12:40, “For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”
Ephesians 4:8-10, “Therefore it says, "When he [Jesus] ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men." 9 (In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)”
Act 2:25-28, 31, “For David says concerning him, "'I saw the Lord always before me, for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken; 26 therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced; my flesh also will dwell in hope. 27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption. 28 You have made known to me the paths of life; you will make me full of gladness with your presence…' Act 2:31, “he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.”
1 Peter 3:18-19, “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison.”
It does not sound like those to whom Jesus preached to were asleep! Also how could Jesus speak if he was in the dust sleeping himself? The doctrine of soul sleep is false.
You see, the bible does not support the doctrine of soul sleep in any form or style no matter how many scriptures are twisted to support the ways of the world on this matter. The bible declares something else other than soul sleep.
Post - 6 - 1-30-2008
"Next one to enter the fray is Mr. Wheeler and supports Ms Jill’s positions on soul sleep and annihilationism."
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Mr. Wheeler writes: ”God is merciful and is not angry forever – therefore when a sinner dies they go to sleep in the grave – oblivious to all – then they awake as Daniel 12:1-3 says and those not accepting Christ may suffer but a moment in the lake of fire but God’s great love cannot bear this so he annihilates these poor lost souls into a state of oblivious non-existence. The story of Lazarus and the rich man do not prove one is eternally tormented and tortured forever – it is a view of the last judgment – not now – not proving hell exist today So in direct question to your 'whole' point that conscious existence comes after death ...wouldn't Lazarus have much to say about either heaven or hell?? Please make your answer in light of Christ's words from John 11:11-14 which deal exactly with the situation.
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My Response to Mr. Wheeler, written below, gives the scripture evidence that immediately after one dies they are still spiritually alive and not in a state of oblivious soul sleep:Mr. Wheeler, the bible speaks on its own regarding this matter. Majority of these verses give example that those that die are cognizant in another place before the final resurrection:
Luke 16:30-31, "And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"
---Would anyone have of listened?---
Ezekiel 32:31, "When Pharaoh sees them, he will be comforted for all his multitude, Pharaoh and all his army, slain by the sword, declares the Lord GOD."
---Pharaoh is in the pit as well as others and they see---
Ezekiel 32:21, "The mighty chiefs shall speak of them, with their helpers, out of the midst of Sheol: 'They have come down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword." ESV-
---Those that go into the pit hear!---
Isaiah 14:9-10, "Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations. 10 All of them will answer and say to you: 'You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!"RSV
--The shades - the departed lost souls speak...
Isaiah 14:15, "But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit..." - [Sheol and and pit describe the same domain]
Job 26:5-6, "The shades tremble beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof. 6 The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction hath no covering." JPS
---The dead - shades - tremble - yes movement is consciousness---
Proverbs 21:61, "The man that strayeth out of the way of understanding shall rest in the congregation of the shades." JPS
Psalms 55:15, "(55:16) May He incite death against them, let them go down alive into the nether-world; for evil is in their dwelling, and within them." JPS
Proverbs 15:24, "The path of life leads upward for the prudent, that he may turn away from Sheol beneath."
Ecclesiastes 3:21, “Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?”
Isaiah 5:14-16, "Therefore Sheol has enlarged its appetite and opened its mouth beyond measure, and the nobility of Jerusalem and her multitude will go down, her revelers and he who exults in her. 15 Man is humbled, and each one is brought low, and the eyes of the haughty are brought low. 16 But the LORD of hosts is exalted in justice, and the Holy God shows himself holy in righteousness. "
Matthew 23:33, "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?
Luke 12:5, "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!
Matthew 25:41,46, "...Then I'll say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Mark 3:29, “but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin…”
---There is conscious existence in hell for the lost, if not, then it would not be hell.---
2 Thessalonians 1:9, “They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might…”
Luke 16:22-23, “The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.”
---Hades in torments, seeing, speaking, reasoning, cognition fully functioning---
Psalms 88:4-5, “I am counted among those who go down to the pit; I am a man who has no strength, 5 like one set loose among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, like those whom you remember no more, for they are cut off from your hand.”
---Those lost who are in hell are cut off from God forever---
Psalms 88:10-12(88:11) , “Wilt Thou work wonders for the dead? Or shall the shades arise and give Thee thanks? Selah 11 (88:12) Shall Thy mercy be declared in the grave? or Thy faithfulness in destruction? 12 (88:13) Shall Thy wonders be known in the dark? and Thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? JPS
Now before you rejoice and claim that Psalms 88:10-12 teaches that the dead are not conscious, or confirms soul sleeping, or that this proves annihilationism or maybe even provides evidence of universal salvation - please note what the scriptures above reveal: The dead, hear, speak, tremble [move, feel], they go down to the netherworld alive, they suffer eternal punishment – not temporal, they are cut off from God forever banished, and that there is an eternal sin which negates all thoughts of universal salvation.
Therefore Palms 88:5-12 as well as Ecclesiastes 9:5 does not support that the dead are not conscious but rather something else: God will not work any wonder of salvation for those died that rejected God’s salvation through Christ. These lost will not arise and give God thanks. They will not admit to God’s mercy, faithfulness in the grave for not annihilating them. They will never know God’s wonders and the glories of his righteousness in the fiery dark of hell - best forgotten but not left unseen.
We all know we will die one day, but those that forget the Lord know not a thing about God’s faithfulness, mercy, righteousness, and they have no more rewards only what they have sown to reap forever, where all memory and experience of their deeds will never again happen and thus forgotten. Therefore the word destruction and destroy when referring to hell’s just recompense in the bible reveals a state of endless ruin, eternal desolation, a never ending life without God – not non-being.
The dead [rejecters of God’s salvation], hear, speak, tremble [move, feel, whirl, etc], they go down to the netherworld alive, they suffer eternal punishment [not temporal], they are cut off from God forever banished, where eternal sin endlessly negates any hope of universal salvation.
Palms 88:5-12 as well as Ecclesiastes 9:5 does not support that the dead are not conscious but rather something else. I pray that you see before it is too late. Since Jesus warned us about Hell’s eternity, I would be a fool not to warn you of this also as I follow my Lord.
Truly…
Psalms 9:17, “The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God…” KJV
Note -- All Bible quotes not marked are from ESV
Post - 7 - 1/31/2008 -
Mr. Wheeler comes back and continues holding his ground:
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Mr. Wheeler writes: There is only one judgment and the dead ‘soul sleep’ till that moment because God is too loving and merciful to endure punishing anyone forever. He will make all memory of them cease. You scriptures refer to the final and only judgment which is Revelations chapter 20 when the dead are all judged and nothing about an afterlife – a holding tank called hell for the wicked or reside with Christ in heaven anytime before this event. The Rich man and Lazarus parable refers to a future time of Revelations 20. The dead do not think or remember nor do they know anything as the bible says in Ecc chapter 9.
Jesus never taught or alluded to the deceased existing immediately after they die; instead he mentions them as asleep. God is so ‘loving’ that he will toss the wicked to be burned up with a temporary amount of punishment to satisfy justice but these wicked will burn up - ceasing to exist as God’s love cannot endure seeing the wicked suffer forever. God is not a sadist! There is only the final Judgment – you soul sleep, awake to this judgment, then either burn it eternal fire that burns one non-existence or enter the new earth – not heaven. ”
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My response to Mr Wheeler:
I stated this before and it may have confused several of you when I wrote of two different judgments. So let me clarify this again: Hebrews 9:27 states plainly immediately after death comes judgment. This determines where one will reside in the afterlife. The second judgment involves both the resurrection of judgment and the resurrection of life. The second please note, involves Resurrection. To be resurrected means both body and the spiritual will be rejoined and this is known as the resurrection of the body. This is the final judgment which in essence means – final commuting of a sentence previously passed.
Here is a brief simple summery of the orthodox Christian doctrine of the resurrection of the dead: After one dies, the physical body sleeps in the dust returning to dust [decay] but the spirit/soul, the essence of who we are, if one is a Christian rests residing where the Lord is, or as if a non-Christian, they are brought to a state of ruin in hell’s containment. [[b]Matthew 12:30[/b]]. One day, the Lord will return and our essence will be rejoined to a new body formed again out of the dust of the earth - Some to everlasting life and others everlasting contempt.
Also the bible plainly teaches that God judges all people and judges many times and in many ways. There is one final – Last Judgment that settles all the issues from the others. Those of you who believe in ‘soul sleep’ erroneously define this 'Final Resurrection Judgment’ only as a single solitary judgment [such as in Daniel 12:1-3]and neglect all the other truths that the bible contains about God holding the wicked to account just as it is written:
Psalms 9:15-17, “Jehovah is known. He has executed judgment; the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah. 17 The wicked shall be turned into hell [sheol], all the nations that forget God.” MKJV
Deuteronomy 32:22 reveals that Sheol is a real place and exists before the Revelation lake of fire: “For a fire is kindled by my anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol, devours the earth and its increase, and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.” ESV
Sheol is not the lake of fire so this is not some future event seen from the past. The wicked will be turned into Sheol. Now look at what Job 26:4 states – I placed the Strong’s Numbering System next to key words so you can do your own word study.
Job 26:4-6, “With whose help hast thou uttered words? And whose spirit [breath 5397] came forth from thee? 5 The shades [7496] tremble [2342-twist, whirl, dance, writhe, fear, tremble, travail, be in anguish, be pained] beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof. 6 The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction [11-Abbadon - a place where ruination is brought out, or drawn out of a person – exposing a person as he/she really is - their moral rot slowly uncovered] hath no covering [3682-concealment, masking].” JPS
Luke 16:22-23, “The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.” ESV
Why do those of you that believe in any of the varied 'soul sleep' doctrines fail to note that the spiritual part of human beings continue after death just as Hebrews 9:27 states and Paul alludes too in Philippians1:23 as well as elsewhere.
You stated that “Jesus never taught or alluded to the deceased existing immediately after they die.”
However I suggest you look again what Jesus said as recorded in John 5:24-29, “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. 25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.” ESV
Jesus stated this in verse 25: "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God…”
What does ‘is now here’ mean if it does not mean ‘is now here’? How do you deal with what is recorded in Matthew 27:52, “52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.” ESV
Well according to those who believe in any of the varied doctrines of soul sleep – Matthew 27:52-53 could not have happened because it is not the time of the end! However, what Jesus said is true: "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God…” Yes the dead hear and are not asleep, nor do they wait in silent blissful slumber for a future event. What does ‘is now here' mean if it does not mean ‘is now here’?
What happened to these that were raised in the Matthew account? Did Jesus tuck them back into the earth and say, “Now sleep my child to the end – I just woke you for a little while – time to go back to bed-e-bye?” I think not.
Paul states for believer that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord and again he stated that those Christians who have fallen asleep – died – will be will be with Christ in the air when he returns the second time for the resurrection of the body, See 1 Thessalonians 4:14. Again, where do believers in Christ go immediately after they die? Answer - to reside with him awaiting the resurrection of their new bodies: See 2 Corinthians 5:1-8
You see, again the doctrine of soul sleep is proved false. The varied doctrines of soul sleep all attempt too explain away the clear teachings from the bible. LastlyLuke 16:19-31 is based on something Jesus knows as fact. To say other wise, would end up making Christ a liar if this parable had no truth to it.
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Post 8 – 2/2/08 -
Ms Jill now responds to my comments to Mr. Wheeler:
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Ms Jill writes: B. W. the bible clearly says in Ecclesiastes 9:5 that, “the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.” Mr. Wheeler is correct on this – you cannot be. Bible says the dead no nothing and if nothing they are asleep.
Those that are dead are asleep, knowing nothing, oblivious, until that final resurrection of the dead. There is only one resurrection when the dead arise. The soul is part of the body and is joined with the flesh. It is not immortal as it is part of the flesh as God says in Genesis – “God breathed into Adams nostrils and he became a living being, creature. HEBREW WORD MEANS SOUL AND SOUL TOGETHER. The Hebrews used the word soul holistically and includes the flesh. Flesh decays thus the soul sleeps in the earth till Dan 12:1-3 happens.
You do not immediately, face God’s judgment after death. That comes later as Daniel 12:1-3 and Revelations 20 speaks of. It is you who are wrong – the bible you quoted refers to the last judgment or is symbolic of God punishing sin in a historical context. You are way off…the dead no nothing. The bible does not mean what it says in the verses you QUOTE. You need Holy Spirit insight to know what they REALLY MEAN.
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My answer below:
Hi Jill - please stop and think for a moment… …You neglected to mention the actual context of Ecclesiastes 9 – let’s read the context to find out if your view on verse 5 is correct:
Ecclesiastes 9:3-4, “This is an evil in all that is done under the sun that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.” 4 But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Comment – chapter context explains the honest meaning of the individual text of Ecclesiastes 9:5 you cited as a proof text for soul sleep. The context disagrees with your interpretation of Ecclesiastes 9:5. Let’s go over verses 3-4 first:
He who is joined to the living Lord has hope. We as sinners are just like a repulsive ‘dog.’ God transforms those that have joined themselves to the Lord from being sinners into kings and priest and are remembered in the book of life where his/her names are inscribed. Those that join death’s lion and share its pride have no hope. Satan roars like a lion seeking whom to devour. Principle being revealed in this text is: join yourself to the living Lord and forsake the pride of the dead lion. The bible teaches these principles does it not?
: Ecclesiastes 9:5 says, “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten
Again, Ecclesiastes 9:6 explains what Ecclesiastes 9:5 means. Therefore let’s look at Ecclesiastes 9:6: “Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.”
The meaning is pretty straight forward and stays within the context as well as continuity of the bible. To briefly sum it up: Those described forsaking the Lord by sharing the sin of the lion have no more share in the land of mortals. This means that such people, after death, have been cut of from mortal life, separated from it, and no more share in it or have a chance to repent. Instead they find a place where the wicked have no rest, a place where the ‘dead – cut-off’ lion devours, where they are banished from God and all hope forever. Where they are held in punishment awaiting the resurrection of the dead which raises the existing spiritual essence of a person to his/her final domain where one’s spirit, soul, and body are joined together with ones final sentence.
Ecclesiastes 9:6, “Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.”
This verse explains what is forgotten and why no memory on earth will remain of such persons mentioned in verse 5. They have no more ‘share’ in anything done under the sun. In other words, they do not come back to this planet as they are cut off from mortal life ‘under the sun’ as the eternal has for them begun forever where the lion roars. Thus, everyone mortally alive after these have died will forget these people ever were as all memory of their hate and envy perishes with the passing of time during this mortal life under the sun.
I do not want to sound rude but go to a graveyard and read these verses out loud and you may get a better understanding of what these verses mean and while you do so please note which graves have the most flowers compared with those that do not…The memory of these dead are forgotten by the living just as the text expounds.
You also forgot to include Ecclesiastes 3:11, “He [God] has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.”
Many people attempt to contest the meaning of verse 11 but notice that the context flows into Ecclesiastes 3:14 thus clarifying verse’s 11 intended meaning: “14 I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him.”
Wow – whatever God does endures forever lines up with verse 14 thus defining verse 14 as, God putting eternity into man's heart. You cannot escape this nor twist it to mean something else. God placed eternity in men and women because what he does endures or last forever as we are fashioned in whose image and likeness according to his will?
Note what Ecclesiastes 3:17-19 continues on to say: “ I said in my heart [Note where God places eternity which endures forever], God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every work. 18 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts."
God test to see who are his children and who are beast – does not these scriptures say this? Note the writer mentions that both the righteous and the wicked shall die. Now look at verse 19-20: “For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return”
The physical body is laid to rest after death, buried in the ground and returning to dust [very plain meaning] so now verse 20 makes more sense in light of context of verses 11 and 14: “All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return, verse 20” All go before God in judgment as Hebrews 9:27 states.
Do not believe me? Look at Ecclesiastes 3:21-22: “Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth? 22, “So I saw that there is nothing better than that a man should rejoice in his work, for that is his lot. Who can bring him to see what will be after him?”
Only God knows who will go upward to him and who, like the beast [the wicked] will go down into the earth [to Sheol].
What comes after this and who will bring one to see what comes after? The bible speaks of the spirit of man after death returning to God who gave it and from this we see for what purpose as it is written: “ And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment…”:Hebrews 9:27,
Immediately after death comes what? The word ‘Judgment’ translated here means trial, separation process, selection process; a verdict arrived at, a sentence commuted. One can correlate that the prison, pit, Sheol described in the bible is liken unto a holding center, an intake area, where inmates are temporarily housed till the final sentence is decreed dictating where they will serve their real sentence.
I like the last sentence of Ecclesiastes chapter 3: “Who can bring him to see what will be after him?” Christ Jesus can and does as John 3:15-16 reveals. Before Christ all was vanity but now there is hope that the living God brings that defeats the snares of the devilish lion. Ecc 9:4, “But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.”
Next, regarding the doctrine of the Resurrection of the Dead:
Many mistakenly confuse the event of physical death and its immediate judgment with the resurrection of the dead and the final sentencing of judgment on what is known as ‘Judgment Day’ mentioned in the closing chapters of the book of Revelations. Doing so, they mistakenly combine these two events into some kind of sleep state nonsense.
Please note that the Christian doctrine of the ‘Resurrection of the Dead’ involves the natural body dying and being transformed into spiritual body reunited with both soul and spirit raised together either unto glorification to live with God forever without sin or sent to a place of everlasting contempt, recompense, in the lake of fire. The Resurrection of the Dead, you could say, seals the deal – the final sentence. [Read 1 Corinthians 15:42-58] for more about this doctrine.
The bible uses images that people can relate too. For example, the dead look asleep. To awake means arise from slumber. When you slumber, are you dead or still alive? Do you dream? The dead will never know this mortal life again – they will awake first to judgment deciding if they return to God or go below to the pit Sheol and wait for the final sentencing. Immediately after death they experience in the prison, pit, Sheol, grave, Hades, living in their own living personal nightmares reaping what they have sown until the final sentencing takes them to a new living reality forever in the lake of fire.
After all, ‘there is no rest for the wicked!’ ‘And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment!’ This is a true statement: “the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment.”
The doctrines of soul sleep are based upon the ways of the world. God’s word cuts to the heart of the matter. Instead of trying to use scripture to prove soul sleep why just not simply come out and be honest and state why you hate the concept that the bible so clearly teaches about hell and the afterlife?
You, who hold the doctrines of soul sleep, find it repugnant that God can toss such nice people as we ourselves into hell for eternal punishment forever? Is that it or something else? What is the real heart felt reason? We can discuss this rationally as long as you are honest but if not – you’ll never discover truth that will set your heart free about such eternal matters.
Note: All bible quotes from ESV
Post – 9 – 2/2/08
Mr. Wheeler comes back with his retort and wrote: For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord". Romans 6:23 I was looking for B.W. and/or others to give me the answer to this...but Ms Jill's will do. IF the price of sin is eternal fire/torment/death...did Jesus really pay the price of sin for us? If so...explain Him (Jesus) not burning and in torment still? Jude 1:7"] In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Are the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? If not, the writer is a liar! NIV - 2 Peter 2:6" if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; An example of what is going to happen to the ungodly...??
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My Answer and response to Mr. Wheeler -- Please do not confuse God justly wiping out Sodom and Gomorrah, and the ancient world of Noah’s time as a proof text that God annihilates into non-existence or proves soul sleep. These events happened on finite terms – mortality was extinguished so God’s good plans prevail.
Those that perished where not eternally annihilated for reasons cited in my prior postings regarding God placing eternity in our hearts. These people were removed from the land of the living so they no-longer can cause harm. This is God’s sovereign right to do, to mortally kill and make alive. Notice the context of 2 Peter chapter two and what verse nine states regarding the same subject matter.
2 Peter 2:9, “Then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the Day of Judgment…”
When the judgment of God falls upon those mortally alive for their great sins, these are removed from the land of mortal living and are turned into a place where they are kept under punishment until the Day of Judgment. You cannot be any concert than that. Those that perished - their souls/corrupted spirits were turned into Sheol where the fiery wrath of God burns. The bible clearly teaches this. Those people from that time are still being kept under punishment and will be so till the second death when hell and its inhabitants are tossed into the lake of fire just as the bible teaches.
Note what Jude 7 really states: “…Serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.” The fire and brimstone of Sodom and Gomorrah serve only as examples that God’s just wrath will fall. An example is - just that – an example. The eternal fire of punishment burns forever in all its full and symbolic implications as God so wills.
These are examples that God repays in judgment. The fire remains eternal, not temporal, and has nothing to do with fire and brimstone raining down destroying these cities way back when or that these cities not existing today to prove your beliefs. Yes, the cities were laid waste to ruin because God judged these people and as it is written in Psalms, they were turned into hell – eternal fire in the afterlife. To say otherwise creates the logical fallacy of contradiction with continuity of the subject contained in the entire bible.
Psalms 9:15-17, “Jehovah is known. He has executed judgment; the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah. 17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, all the nations that forget God. ” MKJV
Also note that God’s wrath is given as an example of fire: Deuteronomy 32:22, "For a fire is kindled by my anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol..." ESV
Again note that before the resurrection of Christ as well as before the Final Judgment, that Jesus himself gives this description of hell occupants as a conscious afterlife in the Old Testament era:
Luke 16:23-24, "...and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'" ESV
The eternal fire is in Hell, not remaining on Sodom and Gomorrah’s physical earthly locations. The populace was not eternally annihilated but judged as rejecters of God and turned into Hell, right after death, where the eternal fire of God’s judgment, wrath, and just recompense burns eternally.
These finite cities and people were mortally annihilated which means removed and cut off from the land of the mortal living to be judge as rejecters of God and turned into hell, forever alive as Psalms 9:15-17 declares as do other scriptures already amply reviewed. God has the right to judge the wicked to cut them off and remove them from the land of the mortal living and turn them over into his everlasting retribution proving his justice and mercy absolute and way beyond the scope of mortal finite reasoning.
In fact, Jude speaks of false brethren Jude 4 who crept into the Church bringing false doctrine and denying Jesus Christ and denying his actual effective work. This passage is warning that these need to repent or face the consequence of joining other inhabitants in the current hell.
Confusion comes from finite people who can empirically annihilate mortal physical life and make mortal life cease. From this comes the notion of annihilationism. However people cannot kill, annihilate the soul/spirit of man just as Jesus said in Luke 12:4-5: "I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have nothing more that they can do. 5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!”
And in Matthew 10:28, “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” ESV
The word destroy does not mean annihilate, or to kill that causes a total cessation of existence. It means a state of ruin, perishing, lostness, and when Jesus means eternal destruction he means everlasting ruin – punishment just as the force of Revelation 20:10-15 states: “…and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever….15, And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
Yes, thrown into the same lake of eternal fire to suffer the same fate - tormented day and night forever and ever without end – not extinction. The force of the words defies such extinction into non-existence. The very words eternal destruction means this is a state of everlasting ruin, lostness, perishing, banished from God forever: proving God’s justice and mercy absolute and way beyond the scope of human mortal finite reasoning.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, “…in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.” 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might…” ESV
The message from Jude 4-25, 2 Peter2:1-22 is not a proof text for the annihilationist point of view but rather a warning to false brethren that as certain as God’s fiery judgment fell on the ancient world, judgment will come to those denying Chirst without warning, and they will join other rejecters and defilers in hell’s eternal flames – that is the example used within those pages.
Lastly Mr. Wheeler you asked these questions: “IF the price of sin is eternal fire/torment/death...did Jesus really pay the price of sin for us? If so...explain Him (Jesus) not burning and in torment still?
The doctrine of Annihilation in reality denies the resurrection of Jesus Christ as being even being remotely possible. I can hear the Annihilationist scream: ‘What are you saying! – No we do not in no way teach this!’ However if we are to follow the annihilationist line of logic to its final conclusions then whenever the word 'death' is used for 'mortal death,' then absolute annihilation must be read into the meaning of the word death to remain true to the doctrine.
Hebrew 2:9, “But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. ”
If Jesus tasted death for everyone and by his death he paid the penalty for sin, which by the way the bible does teach is the death penalty for sin Gen 2:17. Then Jesus would have to have been annihilated into non-existence in order to legally ‘taste death for everyone’ and pay the price for humanity’s sin.
Jesus was not annihilated into non-being. Instead, if Jesus ‘tasted death for everyone’ by going into the underworld for three days and nights preaching to the spirits in prison and then leading those righteous held captive by death’s lion to his heavenly domain. This then would prove God does not annihilate into non-existence for Jesus Christ did rise from the dead. Ephesians 4:8-10, 1 Peter 3:18-19
If the annihilation says of 1 Peter 3:18-19 that Jesus was put to death in the flesh, how could that happen since Daniel 12-1-3 has not yet occurred and even then for Jesus to taste death for all, in the flesh, he would have to be annihilated into non-existence as that is where the logic of annihilation ultimately leads too.
How can Jesus be put to death in the flesh if the flesh did not taste annihilation? How can Jesus taste death for everyone, and not be annihilated to make propitiation for sins and still pay the penalty for sin if death means only annihilation? How could Jesus be made alive from annihilations state and alive in the spirit?
1 Peter 3:18-19, “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison…”ESV
Of course you can wiggle out of this dilemma by proclaiming Christ sinlessness and divinity but according to the annihilationist view – mortal death can only lead to annihilation to satisfy the death penalty God declared. For Christ to die for sins means he would have to been made extinct in order to satisfy the just requirements of God.
Would God be just making a sinless one extinct? Or maybe there is life after death after all, either eternal life with God or everlasting fire, punishment, deep darkness, a place of everlasting ruin where just recompense forever burns darkly for those choosing rebellion.
As Stated Before:
What proves mercy true – a life sentence or extinction? What demonstrates love’s reality - a life sentence or extinction? What express honest goodness - a life sentence or extinction? What do you deserve - a life sentence or extinction?
Extinction for finite sins??? That defies mercy! love! and God’s goodness! Who should God serve? - man because men find God’s absolute justice repugnant because God does not make one absolutely extinct on man’s terms and justification? Or rather because of God’s justice, He gives those that reject Him what they want – a place without God forever as He wills that these be served just recompense to prove He is God true to himself and no one else.
Deny it all you like. You are more interested in appealing to men rather than knowing God. Eternal absolute extinction does not even make the devil tremble or the worst serial killer care. They would have gotten away with all their crimes as well as proving God untrue to himself by proving that God really has no absolute mercy, no justice, a God of the dead [absolute extinct] and not the living, taking his gift of life away. There are those that would like nothing more than to make God untrue to his nature and character so that then God ceases to be God.
Understand now how Satan rebelled and why evil exist mocking God…
Post - 10- 2/4/2008
Mr. Dee now joins the debate. He is also believes in soul sleep and annihilationism but runs against a wall:
Mr. Dee writes “No where in the Old Testament is any reference made to Hell and the afterlife excising beyond or in the grave… You are either soul sleeping or annihilated by God’s mercy so you won’t have to suffer. The ancient Hebrew tradition believed the dead sleep and that is the correct view – not your narrow minded fear inducing rhetoric. In Job 26 you used the Hebrew word translated ‘shades’ to prove people are alive after dying. This is not correct because the Old Testament Hebrew people did not believe in the afterlife. The word translated into our English word ‘shades’ meant that these ‘shades’ are asleep in the grave; hence, they are soul sleeping, resting till awaken, etc. ALSO the words used in both Greek and Hebrew translated perish, destroy, destruction means to annihilate, extinguish… Isaiah 26:13-14 also contradicts stating that the shades’ cannot praise God and if they cannot praise then they a sleeping and become annihilated after the last judgment…”
My answer to Mr. Dee’s objections as follows: The Old Testament peoples did believe in the afterlife. The afterlife is given in verbal snapshots here and there within the OT text. Looking at these snapshots, you begin to see a picture formed from each frame. By examining each you can pin point what they believed. There are several errors people make in interpreting afterlife only as a state of sleep. First, the ancient’s cosmology painted the world above as heaven, the earth in the middle and the realm of the dead below. This realm of the dead was divided into two distinct parts: the abode of the righteous dead and unrighteous dead.
Jesus captures the Old Testament version of the afterlife in the Luke 16 parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Lazarus went to a place called Abraham’s Bosom and the rich man went to the pit, Sheol, hell. Both had their bodies buried in the grave and yet they were both still very much spiritually alive separated from their physical bodies. They could speak, feel, think, hear, reason, etc and were not asleep.
The scriptures reveal that the physical body after death decays returning to dust, yet, another part of being human remained – the spiritual just as Jesus speaks of in Luke 16. Also, Ezekiel 32:17-25 describes that the dead can speak, feel, think, hear, reason, etc, and are thus not asleep as do many scriptures already cited elsewhere.
In the Bible, the ancient Hebrews had a name for the departed soul/spirit called, râphâ' – [re paa im] and translated into the English word ‘shades.’ Shades are specters of the dead, spirits of those human beings that have died, the real them – their literal essence of being. God placed eternity in the heart of man/woman because what he does concerning his gift of life endures forever, Ecc 3:11-14.
The bible uses this word in eight verses within the Old Testament and the snapshots each reveal is most telling on what they really believed. Look at Job 26 from the Jewish Publication Version – JPS. I placed the meaning of several Hebrew words in parenthesis so you can capture the essence of what Job is saying as well as the Strong’s Numbering System so you can check out the meanings for yourselves:
Job 26:4-6, “ With whose help hast thou uttered words? And whose spirit [breath 5397] came forth from thee? 5 The shades [7496] tremble [2342-twist, whirl, dance, writhe, fear, tremble, travail, be in anguish, be pained] beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof. 6 The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction [11-Abbadon - a place where ruination is brought out, or drawn out of a person – exposing a person as he/she really is - their moral rot slowly uncovered] hath no covering [3682-concealment, masking] .” JPS
I realize that many think the word translated destruction means non-existence or being brought into a state non-being but it does not. The context of text filters the true meaning from the dictionary definitions and not the dictionary definition being arbitrarily inserted into the text. The Hebrew word translated ‘destruction’ means ruin, a place of ruin, misery, where varied forms and types of decay or ruination happen. In Job 26:6 the word is used in conjunction with having no covering – concealment. This refines the meaning of Sheol as a place where ruination and moral decay is brought forth, drawn out of a person – exposing the person as he/she really is.
Context backs this up too as the Shades tremble! The word tremble means twist, whirl, dance, writhe, fear, tremble, travail, be in anguish, be pained! Now if the departed souls, shades twist, whirl, dance, writhe, fear, tremble, travail, be in anguish, be pained in the underworld then they are not asleep! Also Isaiah 57:20-21 backs this up too: “Truly - There is no rest for the wicked”
What about -- Isaiah 26:14?
The word translated as “Shades” as used in the Old Testament reveals verbal snapshots that these ‘shades’ are indeed conscious, alert, they can hear, reason, weep, feel emotion, reflect, speak, etc, in these verses as well, Proverbs 2:17-22 , Proverbs 9:13-18, Proverbs 21:15-16, Isaiah 14:9 -10, and Ezekiel 32:17-24 about the afterlife. The ancient Hebrew view simply stated that when a person died their physical body decays and returns to earth to become dust but the real you called a ‘shade’ or the ‘spiritual you’ remains alive after death moving onto another state of being or awaking to it.
Jesus in Luke 16:23 stated the same theme. The rich man saw Abraham after the rich man went to sleep, passed away. Abraham was not sleeping either. Why would Jesus fib just to tell a cute moral metaphysical story? His parables are all about things he knows as truth as he speaks truth. For this account to be anything other than related on some form of fact would make out Jesus as lying and thus sin.
As the Luke account reveals, immediately after death you simply move on into another state of being. Where one will either find themselves in Hell, cut off, banished from God and his covenant of life, reaping what they have sown or in united in heaven with the Lord living the new covenant of life!
What about Isaiah 26:14. and how the word ‘shade’ is used therein. Problem those have that believe in soul sleep and annihilationism is that they try to make the proverbial cart lead the horse as we shall soon see by taking a verse out of its context to build support for personal bias by ignoring all other bible verse contrary to their viewpoint.
Now before you read just Isaiah 26:14, understand that we already reviewed what the bible teaches about when a person dies and how the departed move into another realm where either they'll be at home with the Lord or residing in ruin within the pit. How the physical body decays turning to dust and how the spiritual person returns to the Lord to be judged. The bible points this out as evidenced in the bible’s own context and continuity on this subject. Also Note what these verse also say: Link too Philippians1:23, and Link too 2 Corinthians 5:1-8
Note context before verse 14 in Isaiah 26:10, “Let favor be shown to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness will he deal wrongfully, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.” JPS
Now note Isaiah 26:13-14 and please do your own Hebrew word study to check out the definitions of the Hebrew words used in these two verses to verify the truth: Isaiah 26:13-14, “O LORD our God, other lords beside Thee have had dominion over us; but by Thee only do we make mention of Thy name. 14 The dead [4191 The dead cut off ones] live not [2421-will not be restored to a life of health], the shades rise not [1077/6965 - arise, become powerful, rise up strong and oppressive again]; to that end hast Thou punished [6485-visited mustered together for punishment] and destroyed [8045 destroy - ruin - cut-off] them, causing all memory of these to perish. ” JPS
Isaiah 26:14 in the ESV translates: “They are dead, they will not live; they are shades, they will not arise; to that end you have visited them with destruction and wiped out all remembrance of them.” Note: if these do not rise, then what of Daniel 12:1-3? Obviously the verse is not in contradiction of Daniel 12, nor is the verse stating that the dead are ‘soul sleeping or will be annihilated into non-existence’ as this would also contradict the bible elsewhere where the dead – shades are described plainly as conscious and alive residing in another realm.
Hebrew word order for Isaiah 26:14 verse also sheds more light on meaning of this verse: “4191- The dead those executed cut off ones -1077 / 2421-will not be restored to a life of health, 6965 / 1077 these shades – will not arise, become powerful, rise up strong nor ever be oppressive again - 3651 therefore – 6485 These are mustered together in a place where punishment is visited - 8045 and destroying – 6 vanishing/perishing - 3605 all - 2143 memory of them."
Isaiah goes on and explains how and is in context of Daniel 12 and Revelations 20:
Isaiah 26:19-21, “Thy dead [righteous dead because next part qualifies these as belonging to God] shall live, my dead bodies shall arise - awake and sing, ye that dwell in the dust - for Thy dew is as the dew of light, and the earth shall bring to life the shades [context means the righteous dead]. 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee; hide thyself for a little moment, until the indignation be over past. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of His place to visit upon the inhabitants of the earth their iniquity; the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. ” JPS
The message is simple –
Isaiah 26:14; “They are dead, they will not live; they are shades, they will not arise; to that end you have visited them with destruction and wiped out all remembrance of them.”
Notice – the dead will not live again as mortal, they will not be restored to a life of health because they have died and become ‘Shades.’ These ‘râphâ'/re paa im’ will not arise again to oppress, sin, cause harm, travail, etc, ever again. Why and how? - Because God visited them with everlasting destruction – not annihilation by turning these into sheol and the lake of fire to come for eternal recompense and thus wiping all memory of them away.
Why cannot this verse be interpreted to support annihilation? The answer is simple – other ample bible passages teach otherwise, that God judges and holds to account, turns rejecters of God into hell, there is no rest for the wicked, Jesus own words spoken on the matter that eternal means eternal when it comes to punishment. How God designed human beings granting each of us his gift of life.
The way I laid out Isaiah 26:14 supports all the other bible verses on this matter as well as the following:
Isaiah 26: 21, “For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of His place to visit upon the inhabitants of the earth their iniquity; the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.” JPS
Proverbs 2:21-22, “For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the whole-hearted shall remain in it. 22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the land, and the faithless shall be plucked up out of it.” JPS
Daniel 12:1-3, "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt [1860-aversion, abomination, abhorrence – not annihilation; not non-existence but everlasting contempt, aversion, abhorrence]. 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.” ESV
There is a ‘nether-world’ where the spiritual part of a human being goes after they immediately pass away. The bible teaches this plainly. Some will end up in Hell and others, because of Christ work, will reside where he is – in Heaven waiting for the final curtain to unveil and final act to play out - the resurrection of life - the resurrection of judgment. The shades, both righteous in heaven and unrighteous in hell, will be reunited miraculously with some new form of his or her earth bound body in resurrection. Then the final sentencing will be decreed determining the final destination of the righteous to everlasting life and the unrighteous to final everlasting judgment. :Acts 17:32]Why?
Revelation 21:1-4, “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away." ESV
Isaiah 26:14; “4191- The dead those slain cut off ones -1077 / 2421-will not be restored to a life of health, 6965 / 1077 these shades – will not arise, become powerful, rise up strong nor ever be oppressive again - 3651 therefore – 6485 mustered these together to visit punishment upon -8045 and destroying – 6 vanishing - 3605 all - 2143 memory of them.”
Death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away. Everything these cut off ones has caused and each victims memory of their acts and what they have caused and inflicted will vanish away...as God wipes away our tears.
The bible does not declare soul sleep or annihilationism as fact but states otherwise.
All Bible quotes from ESV unless other wise noted
Post 11 - 2/5/2008
During the course of this debate, two people recanted their beliefs in the doctrine of soul sleep and one person admitted that the doctrine of annihilationism he was taught was false. Here is what each said:
Ms Jill writes --- B.W….I have now retracted my belief on soul sleep. I no longer believe this as I now see that the bible does indeed teach life after death…
M. Dee writes: …After reviewing all the scriptures you cited in this debate, I am now convinced that what I have been taught by my denomination about ‘soul sleep’ and ‘soul death (Annihilationism)’ is wrong. I am now seeking a new Church in the Houston area, maybe Joel Osteen’s??
I was taught by my religious upbringing in the SDA that people when they die – soul sleep until awaken at the last Judgment. I now see that these doctrines are wrong. It was not you that convinced me of this but rather the bible and the Holy Spirit (so do not get a swell head!-just joking). I could not reconcile what I was spoon fed for years with what the bible reveals about shades and the conscious state after death with SDA doctrines on soul sleep or annihilation.
In fact, you made me so mad that I tossed my bible in the air across the room in such frustration over choosing what the bible said verses what I had been taught for years. I chose the bible and not the SDA point of view. The SDA is not all bad and there are wonderful people in it but I do see that they carry some things to the extreme. May the brothers and sisters in the SDA have their blinders removed and realize it is by God’s grace we have been saved and sealed to be forever with the Lord…amen!”
Just a quick note from author of this blog: The prior posts so far primarily concerned debating the doctrine of Soul Sleep with Orthodox Christian doctrine. Those of you who encounter such that believe in Soul Sleep and Annihilationism please feel free to use the format of the debate in post 2 through 10 to defend the Christian Faith from such error as Soul Sleep and Annihilationism.
The next three to four post concern the varied forms of the doctrines of Annihilationism and after this – the debate switches to the doctrine of Universalism. For those of you Christians who encounter such people, it is my prayer that you learn from these debates how to counter such beliefs with the bible and help people like Mr. Dee to return to the bible basics of Orthodox Christian doctrine.
Post 12- 2/9/2008
Ms Jill writes --- B.W., I have stated that I have now retracted my belief on soul sleep. I no longer believe this as I now see that the bible does indeed teach life after death. However, the bible also teaches soul death [i.e. Annihilationism], not sleep. I have an answer pending on your earlier post. Meanwhile, in all love and respect, I realize that many may believe that the church founder was a cult leader, but this is simply not true. Jesus Himself said that His "church" would be a "little flock", and would be persecuted and hated by the world. He also stated that Satan was the "god" of this world, and that he has deceived THE WHOLE WORLD. If you believe this, do you not also think it possible that you may have been deceived by Satan? I know I have been, many times, and still am to this day. That is why I post my thoughts and ask questions here, so I may know the truth. God bless.”
My Answer: Does Jesus promise eternal life or soul death? – in regards to how God designed human beings – what God does last forever – he placed eternity in our hearts means eternal because that is his will: Eternal life with Him through Jesus Christ or Eternal living punishment for those that reject him. Note Ecc 3:11-22
How can punishment [just recompense] be eternal if it ceases to exist?
Look at these - Two Logic Trees:
One - Matthew 25:46
1--Eternal – last forever
2--Soul Death ceases to exist
3--Eternal is not Eternal if it ceases to exist
Two - Matthew 25:46
1--Eternal – last forever
2--Eternal recompense last forever
3--Eternal remains Eternal because it never ends
Conclusion:
Such punishment that makes one cease to exist is not eternal justice as it lets the guilty off the hook for what they have done. True absolute justice instead would give ‘such’ a place they so desired – life without God – banished forever from God reaping what they have sown.
God demands an account of what we each ‘do’ with the gift of life that he granted each of us – this proves God’s justice absolute. This gift of life last forever for both the bad and the good or it does not accurately reflects who God is. God is just to spare his gift of life granted to each of us from being deleted into non-existence - this proves God’s mercy absolute.
If God is a God of the living then such deleting life into non-existence is a contradiction to a God who grants life, who asks men to repent and return to him through Christ Jesus, whose gifts and callings are without reneging, who places eternity in the heart, who does things that last forever, God who requires an account of what is past, etc and etc.
In eternities eternal state if the bad were allowed in God’s new heaven and earth they learn that sin has no consequences and would return to it by manipulating God’s mercy. Likewise, if the bad were just spanked a little while in hell and then allowed in heaven they learn that sin has no consequences and would return to it by manipulating God’s love to their advantage. You see, they have the knowledge learnt from the serpent mentioned in Genesis chapter 3.
If the bad were blasted into eternal non-existence then that contradicts who God is himself as the living God. To make life cease to exist in any form contradicts the meaning of the word eternal, everlasting in regards to life that God gives.
God let’s life live and holds to account. Them that that reject him – he rejects and justly placed them in eternal punishment [recompense] which consists of banishment from God forever. For those that accept him, his work on the cross, he reworks and refashions them during this mortal sojourn to live with him forever without possibility of rebellion ever again, justly, rightly, fairly, proving he is true God and Savior.
Mark 12:27, “He is not God of the [soul] dead, but of the living... "
‘Soul Death’ is a contradiction to the gift of life God himself has given each of us as well as a contradiction to God himself.
You asked how do I know that if I am not being deceived. The answer is simple, what the bible says -- is what it says. It describes those that die before the last Judgment as conscious then that is true. The bible describes in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 that those that have passed away will be with Jesus when he returns, so be it. The bible defines eternal as everlasting regarding punishment as well life with God. Revelations 20:10 and 15 speaks of this as does Jesus in Matthew 25:46 – then it is. I do not attempt to explain away the clear meaning of bible text and replace it with a personal basis. I let the word of God explain itself.
Note, what I wrote lines up with the other parts of the bible and there is no contradiction.
Jill with all respect, your church founder is telling you what to believe and goes to great length to warp the bible by changing word definitions, taking verses out of context, and use of persuasive words from men – not God. All I can do is show you what the bible indeed teaches so that you can decide the matter of truth. Remember to stick with what the bible actually says and not what man says the bible should mean and you will do well. Soul Death i.e. annihilationism is not taught in the bible – that is a doctrine of men.
Post 13 on 2/12/2008
Ms Jill continues to hold fast the doctrine of Annihilationism, yet she has renounced the Soul Sleep doctrine and writes below in two paragraphs:: Soul death involves temporary punishment because God is not an eternal torturer but is merciful. You see, in Soul Death, the eternal fire in the lake is punishMENT. However, the punishING will not last forever because the wicked will perish and thus be gone forever. They will burn up and cease to exist. Notice Malachi 4:1-3. "For behold the day comes, that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yes, and all that do wickedly, SHALL BE STUBBLE, and the day that comes shall BURN THEM UP, says the Lord of Hosts, that it shall leave them NEITHER ROOT NOR BRANCH. But unto you that fear My name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings; and you shall go forth, and grow up as calves in the stall. And you shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ASHES UNDER THE SOLES OF YOUR FEET in the day that I do this, says the Lord of Hosts…" So the wicked will be ash, having been burned up and will be gone permanently. Notice also, that God says that this will happen IN THAT DAY, not immediately after death in a holding center.
Let me say again, it is the punishMENT that is eternal, not the punishING. All the verses you gave with unquenchable fire? The fire is definitely unquenchable. To "quench" a fire means to put it out, so therefore the fire cannot be put out. However, no fire can last without something to burn, and once all the fuel burns away, the fire will go out on its own. You want to quote Daniel 12:2? This plainly tells you when we will be judged, at the resurrection, not when we die. And everything you quoted in Revelations will occur in the future, it will not happen at the present time, nor has it happened in the past. In Matt. 25:41, 46? Notice again the phrases "everlasting life" and "everlasting punishment". If people were actually to burn "forever", THEY WOULD ALSO HAVE "EVERLASTING LIFE". This would be contradicting ITSELF if people burned forever. But since this will not happen, there is no contradiction here. The bible does not contradict itself. It speaks plainly for those willing to listen and read it.
My answer to Ms Jill post and comments: I wrote in response…
Jill, Now what of Eternal Punishment? Is it Eternal or Temporal?
Jesus speaking of the final judgment states in Mathew 25:46: “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." ESV
In this verse as in other verses, there are people who teach that the word eternal, when in reference to punishment, means ‘unending only in effect but not unending regarding conscious experience or as you put it, 'it is the punishMENT that is eternal, not the punishING.' Next these same individuals state that eternal when referring to life means ‘unending conscious experience forever without end.’
Eternal punishment ‘unending only in effect but not unending regarding conscious experience’ means simply that the conscious experience of eternal punishments comes to an end when one is burned up and become ashes. Yet, somehow the fire of God’s punishment still burns and keeps on burning endlessly – punishing nothing conscious at all.
This is taken to mean that punishing nothing becomes like an eternal memorial commemorating those sinners/wicked who have been so annihilated into non-being. My question is why commemorate sin and its nature? Eternal punishment is not punishment when it punishes nothing – does God, then, punish the memorial forever? What sense does that make? Punishing non-being is a contradiction to God’s own words in Isaiah 55:8-11 he is faithful to perform. Note: Psalms 9:16-20Link to Matthew 25:46.
You cannot punish nothingness because punishment requires punishing someone conscious, not non-being. Should I go beat up a small boulder because I stubbed my toe on it? Can you really punish a stone? Do these really know punishment? You cannot punish nothingness? I guess you who believe this are wiser than God.
Jesus uses the same words ‘eternal’ side by side in Matthew 25:46 with punishment and life. You cannot claim that eternal, when regarding punishment, has a totally different meaning when it refers to life used in the same sentence, construct, and context. If that is the case, then eternal life would mean ‘unending only in effect but not unending when it comes to conscious experience.’ This would make eternal life temporal since it shares the same meaning alongside punishment.
If it is as you say -- the punishMENT that is eternal, but not the punishING then is it eternal life that is eternal, but not the living?
You cannot have it both ways. Either the word translated eternal means ‘unending only in effect but not unending when it comes to conscious experience,’ or it means ‘unending conscious experience forever without end.’ Therefore, eternal punishment, as spoken by the very breath of Jesus means, ‘unending conscious experience forever without end.’ To say otherwise invokes contradiction and proves beyond all reasonable doubt that the doctrine of Annihilationism is built on logical fallacy.
Your doctrine claims that Malachi 4 teaches that the wicked will be burned into ashes to prove annihilation as a viable reality. Please note the symbolism used in that chapter regarding ashes. Jesus uses the parable of tares and chaff to prove truth. When burned, tares and chaff are in reality changed from one state into another. The ashes still exist in substance – a state of ruin – totally worthless.
Tares and chaff come into a state of ruin when burned by fire; yet, the ashes remain revealing the true worth of the chaff. Likewise eternal punishment brings one into a state of eternal ruin revealing the true ‘why such chaff/tares’ cannot ever enter heaven. No memorial placard can do that.
Post 14
Ms Jill writes in contest to my comments: And yet again you are not comprehending what I am telling you. First, let me say again that it is the punishMENT that is eternal, not the punishING. All the verses you gave with unquenchable fire? The fire is definitely unquenchable. To "quench" a fire means to put it out, so therefore the fire cannot be put out. However, no fire can last without something to burn, and once all the fuel burns away, the fire will go out on its own. You want to quote Daniel 12:2? This plainly tells you when we will be judged, at the resurrection, not when we die. And everything you quoted in Revelations will occur in the future, it will not happen at the present time, nor has it happened in the past. In Matt. 25:41, 46? Notice again the phrases "everlasting life" and "everlasting punishment". If people were actually to burn "forever", THEY WOULD ALSO HAVE "EVERLASTING LIFE". This would be contradicting ITSELF if people burned forever. But since this will not happen, there is no contradiction here. The bible does not contradict itself. It speaks plainly for those willing to listen and read it.
I wrote in response to Ms Jill below:
Let me get this straight, you stated, “To "quench" a fire means to put it out, so therefore the fire cannot be put out. However, no fire can last without something to burn, and once all the fuel burns away, the fire will go out on its own.”
So you mean an unquenchable fire goes out and thus eternal flames are not eternal because they consume all the fuel needed to burn eternally? If you are correct, then you must apply the logic to the word eternal translated elsewhere in the bible. Therefore everlasting life ceases living because eternal does not mean eternal.
According to this line of logic, people need food, water, and shelter in order to live; thus, eternal life only can last as long as food, water, and shelter last because you need these in order to live. Therefore God’s word is conditional upon man’s interpretations and work gathering food, water, and finding shelter. This would mean that eternal is not eternal in any sense of the word so why use it?
You cannot pick and choose what eternal means to suite your own taste and philosophical reasoning. Since God can make a bush burn and not consume it; he therefore can make fire last forever without need for fuel! Where does it say in the bible that God needs fuel to keep the eternal fires of hell burning forever? [Scripture Please not Philosophy]
Is God’s power dependant upon outside resources? He created the universe ‘out of nothing’ surly he can eternally punish and keep the flames burning eternally as he so wills just as he says he will do so - forever! Nothing is too difficult for him the bible declares. Yet you make this too difficult for God by use of human philosophic reason that teaches that God is not as the bible reveals but rather that God is dependant upon finite resources and human ideas concerning what makes mercy merciful.
Next, you stated that, “In Matt. 25:41, 46? Notice again the phrases "everlasting life" and "everlasting punishment". If people were actually to burn "forever", THEY WOULD ALSO HAVE "EVERLASTING LIFE". This would be contradicting ITSELF if people burned forever. But since this will not happen, there is no contradiction here. The bible does not contradict itself. It speaks plainly for those willing to listen and read it.”
This is built upon your presupposition that God cannot make a fire burn forever due to fuel being extinguished as well as that everlasting punishment does not mean everlasting on the simple presupposition the word life is not attached to it.
Annihilationism attempts to make this case by stating that the words translated eternal/everlasting in the bible only mean a succession of temporal ages or a series of connected time epochs, unless the word life is placed directly next too it. Only then it can it mean without end.
This is poor grammar because both terms are used in same context and sentence in Matthew 25:46, and are connected to each other thus mean the same thing. Punishment punishes life – not punishing into non-being: Either a person will have eternal living everlasting life with God or eternal living everlasting punishment reaping what they have sown because that is how a holy and sovereign God wills it.
You need a tremendous amount of human opinionated scripture twisting justification for changing these word meanings to justify reducing ‘eternal’ to mean lasting through a few ages. The word ‘eternal’ means ‘never ending without cease forever’ when applied both to punishment/recompense and life. If it is the punishment that is eternal, but not the punishing as you aptly stated, then is it, eternal life that is eternal, but not the living? You cannot have it both ways.
Is God Eternal but not his living since the word life/living is not used side by side right next to the word eternal or everlasting when bible says God is the eternal everlasting God? Note: Psalms 41:13,
Isaiah 40:28,
Romans 16:26 .
Would Jeremiah 10:10 mean that God is living but he as king only can last for a few ages since the word translated ‘living’ is not placed directly next to the word translated ‘everlasting’ so we can easily read it? [Those who are wise, Jeremiah 10:10 is a proof text that Jesus is certainly God manifest in human form i.e. Trinity - Hint- chay].
To say eternal does not mean eternal in one part of a sentence and not the next is a contradiction proving beyond all reasonable doubt that the doctrine of Annihilationism is built on philosophical doctrines of men, not on sound biblical theology, and is a logical fallacy. The Annihilationist writing on this very blog shows that this doctrine puts more faith in men who need fuel rather than God who ‘created out of nothing.’
Psalms 9:15-17, “Jehovah is known. He has executed judgment; the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah. 17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, all the nations that forget God.” MKJV
Daniel 12:2, “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt [reproach, scorn, contumely, aversion, abhorrence – everlasting]” ESV
Everlasting means everlasting and eternal means eternal. Matthew 25:46 uses the same word ‘eternal’ twice in same tense in same sentence and both have the exact meaning – everlasting without end. To say otherwise is blatant dishonesty to Jesus’ own words as well as what he taught concerning hell, the lake of fire, and his gift of eternal salvation to the lost.
Post 15 – 2/27/2008
Ms Kate who holds the Annihilationist doctorial view now joins the debate in defense of Jill’s doctorial Annihilationist position. The debate will soon get heated between The orthodox Christian doctrine verses Annihilationism - read below:
Ms Kate joins in and writes:
++HI B.W, thank you for your reply, although I must say your attitude somewhat offends what I believe is truth. I will try not to be disrespectful to you, although it may prove hard. I will need to re read your post and go through all your points. I am more than willing to accept I may be in error. That's the thing with human reasoning, it can be dodgy just like any other part of us, but having said that, that I can only use the brains I've got. There are many scriptures that would appear to support 'both' of these opposing views and as the Bible does not or is meant not to be contradictory, it may take some time in sifting through them and being sure about them.
By the way, when you say: 'This is getting old – you are misreading bible to support your opinion at the expense of denying all other scriptures which are contrary to your point of view. People do this all the time. When the bible contradicts your beliefs will you be humble enough to believe the bible and not what your man made doctrines teach?'
That really peeves me greatly. I could say the same of you but I won't. It's that sort of unkind attitude that makes worse the divisions that occur between Christians. That may sound flippant, as I know there are doctrines that are so important that they are not under negotiation, e.g believing Christ hadn't risen (that was an early one that crept into the 1st Century Church) and the one about sinning greatly so as to receive more grace and forgiveness - wow that is so dodgy. So I understand that there has to be a balance in these matters of disagreeing, but please don't write me off just yet as an apostate. Enough of my 'telling you off'. I'm sure you lose patience if you are constantly going over the same old ground, but bear with me while I look up your reply. I will come back to you in a day or two and will support my position with scriptures.++
My response to Kate I apologize personally to you but please understand that it gets rather old debating that the Fires of Gehenna are confined to a trash dump no longer used as such, that since Sodom and Gomorrah no longer exist, as well as Noah’s world destroyed in the flood used as proof text to prove an Annihilationist point of view - In full disregard of what many bible verses amply point out is like beating a dead horse. Please grasp the implications what the doctrines of Annihilationism, Soul Sleep, and Universalism has brought into the church: a denial of God’s character and nature.
Does eternal punishment mean everlasting or not, does eternal destruction mean everlasting or not. These words were spoken by Jesus Christ and he seemed to think these were extremely important. Christ also offended many. Should we not believe Christ and preach the full gospel because he offends people?
Before you come back explaining your position please answer one question before you do:
Are you pro-abortion or pro-life?
Ms Kate answered: Hi B.W, I am happy to answer your question - I have always been anti-abortion. I couldn't put it any better than David Psalm 139:13-16. I am drafting a reply for you and I'll try to keep it brief.
Wrote in response to Kate That certainly is good news that you are anti-abortion so am I. Pro-life is for life and the opposite is obliviously the opposite of life.
Post 16– 2/29/2008
Ms Kate writes her reply and it is rather long so I posted her entire pro-Annihilationist position here for reference and these were addressed earlier. After her [this] post, I will next explain the orthodox Christian position that is in opposition to her Annihilationism in a unique manner: If you would like to know how to answer an Annihilationist objections – read my response posted in frame, Post 17, below her response.
Ms Kate Continues and writes:
Hi B.W, I think this topic has three related points to be considered in order to get any understanding about this: what is death and hell? What is a soul? And does God maintain evil people and their suffering in a fiery place for ever?
I will try to be brief and to cover the points you have raised as I go along. I haven't referred to all your points but hope my overall explanation covers them. Your first three paragraphs and other post indicate you had not understood what I had said, or maybe I had not explained myself properly.
The fact that you are 'dead' or no longer in existence, does not mean that's the end of you, or you are forgotten by God: Job 14:13 "Oh that you would hide me in Sheol (The Grave), That you would keep me secret, until your wrath is past, That you would APPOINT ME A SET TIME, AND REMEMBER ME!''. So 2 Pet2:9 is in agreement with Job's sentiments I would say! The scriptures that support my views on death being the opposite of life i.e. unconsciousness, no longer existing are:
Gen.3:19 - we are going back to our pre created condition.
Eccl3:19- mankind and beasts have same eventuality (although with respect to mankind we have hope of living again, the beasts don't).
Eccl 9:5, 6 and 10 the state of the dead.
Psalm 146:4- go back to pre existence state.
You mentioned Psalm 9:17 - this is a clear, well repeated fact that the wicked go to the grave or sheol as is mentioned here. Death is the punishment for sin. As we are all sinners we all pay the price for sin - DEATH, and the dead go to sheol (the grave, where there is no activity, thoughts etc - the opposite of life in fact). As you note, they are being kept under this punishment until the day of Judgment.
You quote Jude 7 - The Amplified Version says 'The wicked are sentenced to suffer just as Sodom and Gomorrah.......as an exhibit of perpetual punishment of everlasting fire'. This is showing how these cities were punished by literal fire and brimstone. The inhabitants went down to sheol where they await their judgment. The fire and brimstone are truly destructive- the towns were completely wiped out - not re-buildable in any sense, so a symbol of eternal destruction.
Fire is used symbolically to represent the absolute and eternal destruction of people. Just as God does not have literal eyes or wings (Psalm 17:8) He does not have a literal place of fire where he puts those who do not love Him. The only scripture which does imply life after death and a place of torment is the story of Lazarus as you note for me.
If I were to read just this and not refer to the Hebrew scriptures then I would accept that this could be implying 'consciousness after death', but because of the wealth of other scriptures that say the opposite I need to know for sure what this parable means. If we read this parable literally then we are to believe that certain people when they die, go to a place of comfort, or Abraham's bosom. We know it's not heaven because Jesus himself said no one had ascended into Heaven. But 'a place of comfort' sounds pretty incredible to me. Now if we go there when we die, what is the point of the whole Atonement?
I have looked up this parable and I have found many sites that seem to hold the same view which reasonably and clearly presents this parable to mean this: the Richman represents the Jews and Lazarus the other Gentile nations. I won't go into too many details but I can show you some links if you wanted to check this out thoroughly. Trying to condense it down, Jesus was showing the spiritual gulf between the Pharisees and how they will lose favor or their privileged position.
The tables will be reversed if you like and the Gentiles will be the ones to gain this favor. This did happen as Jesus foretold at Matt 21:43. Another thing that worries me is the rich man wants to warn his family so they don't have the same fate. I know a lot of us are guilty of being similarly 'rich' and not helping the poor. I've walked past beggars and done nothing. I'm living a life of luxury (my cupboards are full of food, I dine sumptuously compared to starving people and I can sit at my computer and enjoy my privileged life. I haven't sold all my stuff (computer included) and given it to the poor. Would God torment this man FOREVER, when he is clearly sorry for what he did?
You also mention Jude 4 (not sure if I'm included as a false brethren).
I am in no way denying the effective work and purpose of Jesus Christ. He gives us eternal life, he brings us back from death. He reverses the effects of death and sin. Surely, His sacrifice is even more so amazing when you consider that you don't go on living after death in a paradise like place but you really are dead!! It's so frustrating that you can't see this point!!! You are correct when you say that people cannot kill or annihilate the soul, as I quoted earlier, only God can do that as you quote in Luke 12:4-5. You then go on to mention Revelation. Most of Revelation is symbolic, (unless of course there are those who believe in a literal dragon, or harlot. It's mainly symbolism, and the lake of fire, as I stated earlier, is SYMBOLIC of everlasting destruction. We will have to differ on what we believe DESTRUCTION to mean. You are right that the force of the word 'tormented day and night' does suggest consciousness, but the Bible has shown us clearly that the dead are unconsciousness, so again this is symbolism.
Moving on to the second point about 'what is a soul' I believe a creature whether animal or human BECOMES a living soul, that is the physical body has God's spirit breathed into it: as Genesis says 1:7 'and man BECAME a living being (nephesh)' Amplified bible. I have added nephesh in brackets. We don't receive a soul at our creation, we become souls and souls die:
Ezek.18:4- a sinning soul dies.
Isai.53:12- soul poured out to death.
Gen 9:5 - talks of blood of souls (soul meaning life)
Josh 11:11 - souls being struck (killed)
Gen 1:20,21,24,25 use nephesh when referring to the animals. There are lots of other scriptures that use the word nephesh as clearly meaning 'life' e.g Lev24:17,18.
I started to wonder what the Jews had believed about the soul and found this reference: 'The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture' The Jewish Encyclopedia (1910) vol V1, p.564. I also found other mentions of this whole debate, and found they are divided on this subject too. There is talk of Hellenism, and pagan beliefs creeping into Judaism but again, I can let you have the links if you so wish.
This brings me to the third point of being tortured or rather punished in a place that is separate from God forever and ever. As I said earlier, I believe the Lake of fire etc to be symbolic of eternal destruction or death. I don't think I can add more to this than I already said in my last post. I believe the idea that God will maintain people in their self made pain and suffering for ever and ever is so contrary to God as a fair and loving Father, that it's no wonder people like Dawkins throw the baby out with the bath water. I for one would struggle to trust in a God like that - that weighs 70 years or so of a human life against an eternity of suffering. He will put them out of their misery.
To conclude: sin causes us to die, we do not carry on living as the Devil claimed to Adam and Eve-that they wouldn't die if they disobeyed God. God put a plan into place straight away to redeem man so that he could live again (Gen3:15). Those of His creation who don't want to avail themselves of His redemption plan ie Jesus, will not receive immortality. Immortality, is the REWARD given to those who are faithful or accept Jesus. Even though we are dying at the minute and still have our mortal, corruptible bodies, we have eternity in our hearts, that is the belief that what is mortal will one day put on immortality. Only perfect, sinless beings can live forever - so if you are neither and you are unrepentant and do not accept God and Jesus, then you will forfeit your chance of living forever and you will remain in your sins which means death. You will receive your Judgment by God and go off into everlasting punishment (death). Immortality is for those who have been tested and made perfect through Jesus and receive an immortal spirit body like Jesus's when He was resurrected.
You think Eternal Non Existence is nothing to fear. I beg to differ, true if when I die I never woke up again, then I wouldn't know (it's hardly bliss if you don't know). Everyone is going to be 'woken up' at the resurrection and Judgment and when they realize what they have lost and see their loved ones safe and loved their sorrow will be so terrible I shudder to even think about it. Their punishment is going to be eternal: they will never be brought back to life or given another chance. Matt 10:28 we know that Hell is the grave, and Jesus is warning of losing your chance of life again. I hope this clarifies my position and I await your feedback.....Kate
Post 17 – 2/29/2008
My response to Kate’s argument above
Hi Ms Kate I already covered these points amply. I can copy and past again as well as review the use of the Hebrew word translated shades. I can prove that Soul Sleep, Annihilationism derived from Plato’s Immortality of the Soul as well as other ancient Greek philosophers. I can review Ezekiel 32 again as well as every single scripture that speaks of life in the hereafter but I would be repeating myself.
The bible is so plain on the matter that it takes someone in denial to re-structure word meanings, along with scripture twisting, to disallow what the bible plainly teaches on eternal punishment. All this is done to just support a biased personal presupposition that one cannot, and will not believe, in a God who dares to send sinners into eternal punishment forever. This double dog dare attitude against God is just like an ant shaking its fist at 240 pound redneck man eating fried catfish at a picnic and this puny ant saying, “I will not believe in you unless you conform to my ways!”
Let me clarify something about God: He is not the happy torturer. The bible says it is a person’s –their- own torments – what a person sows, they will reap is the unrepentant’s just punishment. God’s sends the unrepentant into punishment which if you really comprehend it, is banishment from God forever. This is a place reserved for whom? the devil and his minions. Who torments?
Now however - Let’s try another approach so you may understand:
You stated that you support a pro-life position. Where did this come from ? You and I were made in God’s image and likeness of being made intelligent and alive. We are fearfully and wonderfully made. Yet, how can you hold a pro-life position concerning abortion and not believe that God also has a pro-life position way beyond the ability that our finite minds can fully grasp? How then can God exterminate life, his gift of life that makes each of us fearfully and wonderfully made into a state of absolute extinction?
God has the sovereign right to make mortal life cease and then usher one into a state of spiritual life to just judgment beyond the grave because he made us, according to his own will, a spiritual eternal being [ Ecc 3:11-16 ]. Thus is God truly pro-life. God will not abort this gift of life – spiritual life beyond the grave. That is contrary to his mercy and great love. Abortion defies love, mercy, and disproves responsibility for maintaining and nurturing life. God is a God of the living and not of the dead [ Matthew 12:27 ].
Bible teaches from Jesus’ own words that the Evil one comes to steal, kill, and destroy (render useless) [ John 10:10 ]. It is the evil one who desires people to be blasted off into non-existence, as this would disprove God being who he says he: A God of mercy, justice, grace, righteousness, perfect, without sin, without fault, a God of love, A God all knowing, A God all powerfully able to work through all circumstance, scenarios, and things, to reveal and make his glory known . Such wisdom as this our finite minds cannot fully grasp.
God is capable of extinguishing all life, mortal and spiritual, into a state of non-being but to do so would prove God not all powerful. In fact it would make him defy his own standards of mercy, justice, grace, righteousness, perfection; holiness, etc. Causing him to defy his own gift of life he gives freely as he so wills.
Man and women would love nothing better than the state of non-existence as punishment and so would the devil. The evil one comes to steal, kill, and destroy. In perfect correlation - annihilation, universalism, and soul sleep doctrines move towards the same goals in complete defiance of all who God is .
Yet, many annihilationist claim an anti-abortion position, recognizing the value of human life but in turn denying the same about God in whose image and likeness we were fashioned. Making God out as the happy abortionist blasting people off into a state of non-being – reneging on the very gift of life he gives [ Romans 11:29 ].
How can those holding the Annihilationist view be pro-life? Would it not be best if some people were never born and exterminated early? How about annihilating an entire country’s populace on the grounds that it will help reduce the excess world population thus improve the quality of life for those remaining? The elderly parents – they take to many recourses away – why honor the elderly ? Add to this warped mix of reasoning, Universal Salvation, and these twisted ideas can become a justifiable reality.
The Annihilationist, Soul Sleep, and Universalist point of view is an anti-life position no matter how many bible verses are taken out of context and biblical words are re-defined to proof text its validity. It justifies mercy killing but by whose standard of mercy should be used to justify the killing of whom? Such doctrines reason: “These that die – well poof they are gone into oblivion soon enough no more suffering .” But to whom should this apply? Or for the Universalist can also claim: who cares – all will make it so mercy killing would be quite all right !
Yet, for any Annihilationist to claim a pro-life stance in regards to abortion and the unborn is in itself a contradiction. Those unborn – blasted into the oblivion of non-being is an act of mercy –would it not be ? End their fear early because when awaken at the last judgment to be put back into oblivion of no-pain-no suffering-nothingness they never known anything at all – how absolutely merciful! Or think of it another way: one can rid the world of the excess population so the righteous can live free and enjoy all the worlds resources unfettered! Add to the mix the Universalist creed and you get a justifiable - why not !
I’ll admit this abortion argument is a bit extreme but it serves the example of pointing out the logical conclusions where Soul Sleep, Annihilationism, and Universalisms creeds ultimately lead too: the one whom the bible speaks of as killing, robbing, and destroying – the evil one .
God respects the gift of life he gives to each human being no matter how each abuse his gift. He will require an accounting of the past each has lived and holds them to it. God is not mocked, what a person sows they also will reap the bible declares. This is mercy profound - He does not make one non-exist! He is a God of the living...
Though it is in God’s very power to exterminate mortal life and even make all life, mortal and spiritual, non-exist, he demonstrates instead that he is a God of the living , a God who will render each according to his/her deeds in an eternity either with him or in a place without him. God honors the very gift of life he gives proving what about God’s character and very nature ?
What would not be fair is not to warn of abortions wrongs, not to warn of sins sting, not to shout out that there is another way to truly live through Christ’s blood free from sin’s hurt. It would not be fair not to warn of eternal judgment that waits in the hereafter. Annihilationism and Universalism in reality declares and teaches to ignore these and look forward to extinction - not life and therefore these doctrines are not from God but clearly from the evil one .
Post 18 – 3/5/2008
Kate responds to me and writes: Hi B.W Thank you for your swift reply. There is no need to cut and paste the previous articles. I have read them. You compare abortion with 'soul annihalation' through most of your reply. Quite frankly I am stunned and find it full of a (and if you'll forgive me, in your own words):'warped mix of reasoning' and abhorrent to me. You are firmly convinced of 'consciousness' after death and I accept that certain scriptures give that impression. I think we will have to agree to disagree. I will not post anything more on this subject as you know my position.
I wrote in reply to Ms Kate:
Is it really? Well look again at what is really abhorrent. Kate remember you wrote this:
“and I have found many sites that seem to hold the same view which reasonably and clearly presents this parable to mean this: the Richman represents the Jews and Lazarus the other Gentile nations. I won't go into too many details but I can show you some links if you wanted to check this out thoroughly. Trying to condense it down, Jesus was showing the spiritual gulf between the Pharisees and how they will lose favor or their privileged position. The tables will be reversed if you like and the Gentiles will be the ones to gain this favor.”
You claim that you believe that the Rich man represents the Jewish People and Lazarus represents the Gentiles in Luke 16:22-23. Hmmm, The Rich Man represents the Jews awaiting extermination in the lake of fire – this smells like a Nazi view point to me. I know you are not a Neo Nazi so don’t take me wrong. Does the source you cite promote a Neo-Nazi god that annihilates? It sounds to me like it does in your doctrines interpretation of the account of Lazarus in Luke 16:19-23…
Now note what I stated about the Annihilationist doctrine: “How can those holding the Annihilationist view be pro-life? Would it not be best [according to this view] if some people were never born and exterminated early? How about annihilating an entire country’s populace on the grounds that it will help reduce the excess world population thus improve the quality of life for those remaining?… Add to this warped mix of reasoning, Universal Salvation, and these twisted ideas can become a justifiable reality.”
What does your interpretation suggest? That is why your interpretation of Luke 16:22-23 is in error. Read Romans chapter 10 and 11 soon. Your interpretation of Luke 16 story of the rich man and Lazarus is quite offensive and contrary to other parts of the scripture concerning the Jewish people. I do not tolerate any prejudice against the Jewish people on this blog.
The Luke 16 account illustrates consciousness after death as does all the other scriptures you claim that do not. I amply shown these to you do I need to do so again?
Ezekiel 32:31, "When Pharaoh sees them, he will be comforted for all his multitude, Pharaoh and all his army, slain by the sword, declares the Lord GOD."
---Pharaoh is in the pit as well as others and they see---
Ezekiel 32:2, "The mighty chiefs shall speak of them, with their helpers, out of the midst of Sheol: 'They have come down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword." ESV-
---Those that go into the pit hear!---
Isaiah 14:9-10, "Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations. 10 All of them will answer and say to you: 'You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!" RSV
Job 26:5-6, "The shades tremble beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof. 6 The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction hath no covering." JPS
---The dead - shades - tremble - yes movement is consciousness and they also speak...
Proverbs 21:16, "The man that strayeth out of the way of understanding shall rest in the congregation of the shades." JPS
---A congregation of the shades? How can this be if only one person is buried in their own graves individually?----
Psalms 55:15, "(55:16) May He incite death against them, let them go down alive into the nether-world; for evil is in their dwelling, and within them." JPS
Numbers 16:29-33, "If these men die the death of all men or if they suffer the fate of all men, then the LORD has not sent me. 30"But if the LORD brings about an entirely new thing and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have spurned the LORD." 31 As he finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them split open; 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men who belonged to Korah with their possessions.
33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.” NASB
---Yes you from this example and Psalms 55:15 people do go into Sheol alive---
Proverbs 15:24, "The path of life leads upward for the prudent, that he may turn away from Sheol beneath."
Ecclesiastes 3:21, “Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?”
Jesus warned of Hell as eternal! We must too walk as He and Warn!
Matthew 23:33, "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?
Luke 12:5, "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!
Matthew 25:41,46, "...Then I'll say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels... 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Mark 3:29, “but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin…”
---There is conscious existence in hell for the lost, if not, then it would not be hell.---
2 Thessalonians 1:9, “They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might…”
Luke 16:22-23, “The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.”
All bible quotes note cited are from the ESV
Post 19 – 3/6/2008
Ms Kate angrily writes in response to my comments in post 18: Hi B.W,,,take a chill pill. If I'm wrong then maybe God will show me, but I aint no neo Nazi! I have TOLD YOU CLEARLY that the parable Jesus was giving was NOT LITERAL but showing their spiritual state (which in actual fact will not remain so forever ie. all Israel will be saved). How many times do i need to say it's not a literal fire!!! You really do twist things and misunderstand simple explanations. The fact you believe what you believe does not make me view you as any less a Christian (well maybe up until this last post). I am offended that you think annihilationism is some kind of neo-nazi-justifier. It is not. Why bother writing anymore to you – you quote scriptures and you twist these to mean people burn and tormented in hell. These you quote do not – you are reading them wrong! I had enough of your logic!”
I wrote in response below:
Remember, I stated that I know you are not a neo Nazi but your doctrine's interpretation of Luke 16 does indeed offend the Jewish people and I do question your doctrine’s position. You seem not to be aware of where annihilationism leads as well as what it can justify and where it came from philosophically. We’ll look into this further in this post but first:
You cite a perfect example of what I have been saying regarding how people twist the word of God by relying on man’s opinion alone and not what the word of God says by declaring – “IT is Not Literal! Jesus did not mean this because of this or that reason because some so and so said it was so.”
Despite the abundant list of scriptures that verify that after death a person is spiritually alive as a shade – you still hold the annihilationist position based solely upon private interpretations. Fire can be literal or symbolic – the Orthodox Christian position understands this – so do I. My example on abortion shocks you but the truth it contains should convict you that you are in error. God is indeed speaking to you if you desire not to respond.
Let’s continue with another point you raised in your prior post where you wrote this:
Quote from Kate – “Hi B.W, I think this topic has three related points to be considered in order to get any understanding about this: what is death and hell? what is a soul? and does God maintain evil people and their suffering in a fiery place for ever? I will try to be brief and to cover the points you have raised as I go along. I haven't referred to all your points but hope my overall explanation covers them. Your first three paragraphs indicate you had not understood what I had said, or maybe I had not explained myself properly: The fact that you are 'dead' or no longer in existence, does not mean that's the end of you, or you are forgotten by God: Job 14:13 "Oh that you would hide me in Sheol (The Grave), That you would keep me secret, until your wrath is past, That you would APPOINT ME A SET TIME, AND REMEMBER ME!''. So 2 Pet 2:9 is in agreement with Job's sentiments I would say! The scriptures that support my views on death being the opposite of life ie unconsciousness, no longer existing are:...Gen.3:19 - we are going back to our pre created condition….” End Quote
As for Genesis 3:19 – as I stated before, the mortal physical body returns to the dust and the spirit returns to God who made it. Upon retuning one is judge and from this one either returns up to the Lord as he so wills or down into the pit – that holding center – sheol, Hell, the pit, Ecc3:11-22.
God can extinguish mortal life and thus turn one over for eternal judgment that begins immediately after death and then forever on and on after the final sentencing when the body is rejoined with the spiritual part of man and sent away, Daniel 12:1-3.
We are fearfully and wonderfully made in God image and likeness. Is this image and likeness consists of death or life? It is because of God’s great profound unfathomable mercy that he does not annihilate into non-being.
Annihilationism has it roots firmly entrenched in the philosophy of Atomist / materialist traditions like Epicurus. For example, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicurus) the online Wikipedia states that, “Epicurus…believed that death was not to be feared. When a man dies, he does not feel the pain of death because he no longer is and he therefore feels nothing. Therefore, as Epicurus famously said, "death is nothing to us." When we exist death is not, and when death exists we are not. All sensation and consciousness ends with death and therefore in death there is neither pleasure nor pain. The fear of death arises from the false belief that in death there is awareness.”
Note you also wrote this: Quote from Kate: “You think Eternal Non Existence is nothing to fear. I beg to differ, true if when I die I never woke up again, then I wouldn't know (it's hardly bliss if you don't know). Everyone is going to be 'woken up' at the resurrection and Judgment and when they realize what they have lost and see their loved ones safe and loved their sorrow will be so terrible I shudder to even think about it. Their punishment is going to be eternal: they will never be brought back to life or given another chance. Matt 10:28 we know that Hell is the grave, and Jesus is warning of losing your chance of life again. I hope this clarifies my position…” End Quote
Just think of it – any fear and horror of seeing what one missed will just vanish away into nothingness! As Epicurus said, "death is nothing to us." When we exist death is not, and when death exists we are not. All sensation and consciousness ends with death and therefore in death there is neither pleasure nor pain. The fear of death arises from the false belief that in death there is awareness.”
Despite such claims of fear and terror seeing that one will cease to exist – in the end for the annihilationist doctrine – “All sensation and consciousness ends with death and therefore in death there is neither pleasure nor pain.” What is there to fear? You simply become nothing – so what?
Why should you shudder about this? They will not feel a thing and yet these whom ‘you shudder to think about’ will have gotten away with sin and shame by living a full good life! So therefore, if annihilationism were true, then God would be a cosmic abortionist – would he not? God would also be incapable of keeping his word by reneging on the gift of life he awesomely and wonderfully made. Mercy would lose all meaning. Justice defamed. How can God remain true to his own self- his own nature - his own character?
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