Interesting Thoughts
Questions and Answers:The following section contains clips from various interviews and teachings from my testimony concerning the topic Hell and the Afterlife during the year 2008 such as:
Is the Afterlife really real? What about people who've never heard the gospel? How can we be absolutely sure we're going to heaven? Can the bible be true? What about….
Enter 'Comments' section to read more…
posted by B. W. Melvin | Wednesday, December 31, 2008
9 Comments:
In the up coming days I will post an out line of my testimony for the readers. But for now, I’ll answer one comment I often hear:
Hebrews 9:27 states …. “it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment” ESV
If you really died and saw hell – what about this verse – it can’t be true.
My answer is, “Well, go ask Lazarus…
John 11:17, “Now when Jesus came, he found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb four days.”
Jesus raised people from the dead during his mortal sojourn. He does so even today. The Lord is called the unchanging one, Malachi 3:6.
If it is not your time – you will not go.
Many NDE’s happen today as it is not person’s appointed hour to depart this mortal life, just yet.
Please note that Jesus reveals in John 10:10 that the enemy comes like a thief to kill, steal, and destroy. Now to metaphorically apply this to the NDE experience if it is not your time die – what then? Notice that the thief comes also to steal – rob one of the eternal life that Jesus offers. There are some NDE’s that do just that. However, mine will point you to Christ as the only way, the only truth, and the only life and not to some new age cosmic fad.
We hear often boldly proclaimed that all roads lead to God.
Question: How do I get to your house? How do you get to mine? If I give you directions to my house and since there is only one road leading to it, if you decide to take another where will you end up? Not at my house. Empirically, all roads do not lead to the same end.
I decide to take any old road to your house, and I likewise will not end up there either. If you tell me I need to turn north off the Interstate and I say, "I'll go south instead as - all roads lead to same end." I'll end up driving from the USA to South America to the end of Argentina. I will not reach your house but rather end up in the sea.
Not all roads lead to the same end as empirically proved in this life. Neither do all roads lead to God in the spiritual manner either. The all Roads to God Philosophy offers a twisting-turning detour that leads hither and thither till the road ends either in desolate lands or the deep abyss of the ocean.
Will love - true love not give you directions and a map to follow to reach a certain destination or just tell you - take any old road you like - they all end up at the same location? Which kind of love is really love?
This is a re-edit of the June 5, 2008 post.
Message for Universalist to Ponder
Luke 4:9-12 gives us an account of Jesus’ being tempted and how he overcame: “Then he {the devil - Satan} brought Him [Jesus] to Jerusalem, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down from here.10 For it is written: ‘He shall give His angels charge over you, To keep you,’ 11 and, ‘In their hands they shall bear you up, lest you dash your foot against a stone.’” 12 And Jesus answered and said to him, “It has been said, ‘You shall not tempt the LORD your God.” NKJV
Universalism has much in common philosophically with these same verses. Universalism claims in many diverse ways that: ‘God loves you and never can bear you to be punished forever.’ You have selected bible verses to back up this leap of faith – go ahead jump, fully embracing this faith as God will bear everyone up to himself in the end.’
How Jesus responded is most telling. Luke 4:12, “And Jesus answered and said to him, “It has been said, ‘You shall not tempt the LORD your God.” Now, compare Jesus answer to universalism that declares: ‘the Bible does not mean what it says because all, everyone, will make it to heaven because God loves so much that he leaves no man /women behind...lest you dash your foot against a stone and suffer hurt. Jump!’
When Jesus stated, ‘it has been said’ he means bible scripture. Jesus quoted scripture as the arbitrator of truth, not personal opinions. The bible is important. It is the standard to measure what God’s truths are for humanity. However, Universalism draws a person away from the bible as this measure of truth. They dilute it by changing textual meaning. Opinions become the sole attributor of truth twisting the bible to fit appealing non-threatening opinions of popularity causing many unwary souls to take a proverbial leap into the abyss of error.
Next, Jesus’ retort was simple, “You shall not tempt the Lord your God.” What does it mean to tempt God? Tempting God means a number of things like putting God to the test in order to make God bow and stoop to human desires, opinions, ideology, etc. Notice how the text speaks plainly of God sending angels to catch and lift up to avoid all harm testing God’s love. To take such a leap would make God submit to man. If God were to do this, then he would be no longer a sovereign God but rather in subjection to man and no longer God of all.
Another way to tempt God comes by twisting portions of bible scripture to conform to human sentiments, wants, desires, with the intent to make God dance for us and conform to humanities creeds; thus causing God to bow his knees to humanity. With this in mind, let us look objectivity at some of the tenets which Universalist tout:
--I cannot believe in a God who punishes forever…A sadist God, a happy torturer – I cannot and will not believe because God will save everybody after all, because all means everybody…
--I say that Eternal Punishment cannot mean punishment forever – instead it purifies and restores…and this only last as long as an age last…For it is written…
--I believe that God does not desire us harm as He cannot bear the thought of any part of us being hurt forever – after all, the bible says: God is Love and Love does no harm to its neighbor…
--I cannot and will not follow a God who torments and refuse too believe in such because the bible is wrong, written by men, outdated, and fear based! No need for the bible – Jesus would never say any mean thing and any where the bible says Jesus said means things – well those were added in by George Bush…
--How dare God send millions of innocent people to hell just to torture them - forever!! I will not believe in such an unjust sadistic God…the God I believe in would never be so cruel…
--The bible does not mean what it says in Luke 16:19-31. It instead means that there is no eternal punishment – it is only temporal at best – or purifyingly refreshing – like the Orbit Gum TV commercials…
Pardon the humor but the tenants of universalism fits the philosophy behind the tempters words in Luke 4:8-12.
Now, let’s get something straight: No where does the bible teach that God is a Happy Torturer gleefully delighting in sadistically torturing people in hell forever. Such statements as these made from Universalism and Annihilationism make appeals to emotionalism not founded on truth that the bible proclaims concerning God ways which are perfect and judgment without fault.
The Bible says things, ‘the smoke of their torment’ rises forever. It is a person’s own torment. The bible teaches – what a person sows – they will also reap. Also, notice that no one was torturing ‘that certain rich man’ Jesus mentioned in Luke 16:19-31. But a Universalist, or Annihilationist, cannot accept this because according to their teachings on these verses in Luke 16:19-31 there is no objective truth that can possibly be gleaned from Jesus as this was just a parable of hyperbole not based on facts use only to imply a subjective innuendo. Who is really taking away from the bible and inserting public opinion as creed?
People tempt God without even knowing it as evidenced by the very phrases written on this Blog’s 2/2008 archive. God must bow to them, stoop to them, and pick them up on their terms or else ‘they refuse to believe.’ There is a term for this found somewhere within the definitions of ‘rebellious’ and ‘enemies.’
Christian Universalism is also contrary to its very name. It basically states, punishment is not to be feared – the fires of hell both now, or future, refer to purification that leads to the restoration of all things back to God {Note the tones of Platonic thought in Universalism}. Therefore, what was the purpose for Christ death on the cross and resurrection of the dead if that be true?
Why would God go through the effort displayed on the cross if everyone will be eternally saved anyway simply by purging all through some sort of fire? Will this fire be painful, refreshing, or invigorating? If God’s work displayed on the cross simply saves everyone – what then was God saving people from since eternal punishment is moot anyway in the light of predestination before the foundations of the world mentioned in Ephesians 1? Was the work of the cross meant only for escaping the temporal punishment of purifications ultimate restoration? Universalism seductively whispers: ‘God will bear all of us up to himself – you have nothing to fear. No need for Christ…’
In Matthew 18:8-9, Jesus said it would be better to lose a limb through self maiming than enter into the eternal fires of hell. The Universalist insists this is not what Jesus meant. It is not eternal because it only last but a short while – whoever long and age lasts. Some Universalist claim that this purifying punishment is indeed horrible but necessary to purify. Others say no – it is refreshing and cleansing, much like giving a dirty child a bath who does not want one.
Jesus’ words in Matthew 18:8-9 proclaim that this punishment will be terrible, so terrible that self mutilation would be more preferable than to go into such hell. So it sounds like the purging cleansing invigorating temporal fires in hell are not that pleasant and sound rather like real torture to me.
How can this purging fire in hell be punishment? I thought many of you Universalist declare that you cannot and will not believe in a God that Tortures. Therefore universalism’s punishment leads to purity and cannot involve pain because you cannot believe in a sadistic God who dares to punish. Many of you said so your selves as amply recorded here. Yet what did Jesus say about the nature of such flames?
Ah – I get it – this pain does last that long so then it is okay. What? Since it would be better to be maimed rather than tossed into age burning flames – well honey – that sounds sadistic to me and you yourself stated that you cannot believe in a God who tortures. This – contradicts what you believe in as evidence by your very words you wrote!
Universalism may try to declare this to wiggle out of their contradiction: “Hell will be unpleasant, maybe so unpleasant that you want to avoid it but it is not torture – its painful restoration as God will never torment you beyond what you are able to bear. We have the bible say this and that here and there on this matter.” If you are Christian Universalist you would add to this: “However come to Christ to avoid this temporal torture of pain that purifies.”
Is this not a contradiction in all Universalisms doctrine? According to Universalism - Pain involves torture and God would never allow torment in Hell; however temporal it may be. Yet this doctrine teaches that it is okay to punish for a short while but not forever because forever is bad, but temporal torture, well, that is good because God will lift everyone up; thus, God shows Grace after Death to the wicked, the profane, the good, bad and the ugly – the unrighteous…lest these feel hurt a little too long…After a little torture – pain – affliction – They will all love God and be rebels no more!
Wow! Torture until you say, ‘I love you God!’ How contradictory silly can Universalism be?
Isaiah 26:10 says, “If favor is shown to the wicked, he does not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness he deals corruptly and does not see the majesty of the LORD.” ESV
Because…
Nah 1:3, "The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, and the LORD will by no means clear the guilty." ESV
From this see that that there is no 12 month purification in the afterlife or any at all year after year in flames as that would involve in the kind of torture that cause many Universalist and Annihilationist to insist that they absolutely cannot believe in a God that tortures by any means.
Guess what God says about his own word?
Isaiah 55:10-11, "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, 11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it."
He keeps his word...and he does test...as it is written:
Psalms 11:4, "The LORD is in his holy temple; the LORD's throne is in heaven; his eyes see, his eyelids test the children of man. "
Ecc 3:18, "I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts."
How??? Go back to Isaiah 55:7 and read: "let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."
Romans 5:8-10, "but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life..."
Romans 2:8, "but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury."
Notice it says wrath and fury and how can you believe in such a loving God who would dare inflict that upon any of us in the purifying flames of hell after death even for the shortest duration. Such process of purification would come by the means of torture! The very thing many of you said you cannot believe and will not accept yet the very god of universalism does what you detest!
Nah 1:3 yes - is true: "The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, and the LORD will by no means clear the guilty." ESV
Are you tempting God? Look where your faith causes you to leap…dictating to God how he should be or else YOU will not believe. How selfish and self centered!
Repent.
Below is a question asked by Mr. Martin about what I saw during my experience…
I purchased and read your book. It is one of the strangest that I’ve ever come across. It is conflicted in places in term of language and syntax styles, yet it is this conflict that, in a curious way, lends it credibility.
I have many questions, but will confine myself to the following:
“Again, I write what I saw. Off to the right of the rock was a cave, or cleft-like object, that appeared like a pocket. Behind it lay vastness. A gentle waterfall cascaded into a stream which marked its beginning. . . . The admonition was that it was only for the (extremely) rare who, like Abraham, found faith.”
Can you say what this place is, and is entry to here the only alternative to Hell’s Dominion?
Regards
Mr. Martin
Answer: Hi Martin
Thank you for your comments regarding my book. To answer your question regarding the ‘cleft-like object,’ I do not know what this place ‘is’ precisely. Originally, I was going to leave this part out of book but decided later to include it. One day after becoming a Christian while reading the bible, I came across a reference to this place in Luke 16:19-31 (At the time of my experience, I did not even know this story was even in the bible). The story Jesus gives in the text is a good depiction of it and its purpose that it had at that particular time period.
In Luke 16:19-31, the text describes a place called Abraham’s Bosom. If you look up the word translated Bosom used in Luke 16, you will find in describing ‘bosom’ as a cleft like pocket of a robe located next to one’s heart. The bosom of Abraham is also described by biblical scholars as the cultural custom of a person reclining with their head next to the heart of another at a feast which symbolizes covenant rest, trust, and sharing.
Strongs/Thayer define it as:” the bosom of a garment, i.e. the hollow formed by the upper forepart of a rather loose garment bound by a girdle or sash, used for keeping and carrying things (the fold or pocket).”
There is even a waterfall mentioned in older versions of Strongs Concordance. Some bible commentators also note that this word can denote cool healing waters cascading over waterfall located in a place called Abraham’s Bosom (pocket-cleft for the righteousness). It is described in the Luke 16 account and ancient Jewish tradition as being opposite of the pit separated by a wide gulf (comparable to what I described in book).
What is it for and why it is there? Only God knows the real answer to this. The admonition was that it was only for the (extremely) rare who, like “Abraham, found faith.” Again, this is something bible scholars can debate. Orthodox Christian scholars do agree that, Jesus, after dying on the cross went to Abraham’s Bosom and led those there to heaven’s domain. The debate centers on if Abraham’s Bosom remains empty or is still in use (for purposes only known to the Lord). My personal opinion (which is still only an opinion) holds to the latter that it is still in use for reason’s only known to God.
What is certain to me is that this place is not to be used as an excuse to avoid believing in Christ and the gospel message of salvation. Those ‘there’ were like Abraham who found faith as God so revealed. I cannot go any further than what the bible gives clues too. Again, any bible interpretations I would give on this matter would be my opinions. These need to be confirmed by scripture and honest debate.
Notice in Luke 16 that the infirm beggar, Lazarus, went there. This may suggest that this place maybe a special place of God’s grace for many developmentally disabled people unable acquire a certain state of intellectual reason. Maybe it is a place where children go as Jesus did say, “Let the little ones (children) come unto me and deny them not.” As well as stating that anyone harming a little one would suffer a horrible fate. So how can God allow harm to a little child in hell in the light of the words spoken by Jesus on this matter?
It is also possible that this place could include certain types of persons from the children of Israel – who found faith like Abraham did. Nevertheless, the manner and reason for this place remains veiled from me – I do not know. The Bible mentions it in Luke 16 and makes reference to it elsewhere and from these we should gather our clues and not from human emotionalism.
Lastly, the only alternative to hell’s dominion is heaven’s domain. One enters heaven through Christ work on the cross as Jesus reveals in John 3 and Paul wrote in Romans 10. This is why the great commission is so important.
One last thing, in the book of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 it writes that in the last days there will be a great falling away from the faith. 1 Timothy 4:2 mentions during the same period of time that people’s conscience will be cauterized. This appears the case today as evidenced by the acceptance by many people in the church and elsewhere stating that all religions lead to God and God will not hold anyone to account for various reasons. The problem with this attitude is that it actually is demanding God to acquiesce to man’s terms and demand his submission to humanity’s rule.
This is a form of divination in which people unknowingly use to summon God to do their will. This is done unknowingly from the noblest qualities of human reasoning but if one were to look closely at it more, they’ll discover that theses qualities make the demand that the God of the universe must bow down and serve humanity because humanity is wiser than God on the matters of eternity. This attitude, if left unchecked, would pervert heaven to be like it is on earth now.
Therefore, please do not consider what I recorded in my book as evidence that God will not hold ‘to account’ humanity. We do have certain abilities to reason and such human reasoning justifies rebellion against God either knowingly or unknowingly. This rebellion seeks to make God bow down to the superiority of human reason and will; thus, dethroning God and making man god (Genesis 3:5).
Take another look at the cross again and you’ll see how rebellion was being displayed by the acts / plans of the religious leaders, false witnesses, the trial, beating, and mocking of Christ. That is why we need to surrender by coming to Christ and have him purify us. The cross exposes this. We must surrender to the Lord as we are not Lazarus, nor little children.
Hope this answers your question
God’s Blessing on you and your family!
Jamie Kim from Calgary, Alberta, Canada wrote me several questions that many people ask that deserve an answer.
Dear Bryan Melvin,
Hello. I read your book, and am reading it again. I believe it to be absolutely true. It is truly amazing. I thank you for sharing it with us, and for having a blog where we could reach you and actually talk with you.
What I really like about your book is how God deals with the atheist and anti God beliefs and attitudes.
I really am into reading NDEs and OBEs. However, I am careful because I believe some of them are from the devil, and not from God.
I have a few questions.
1) What about people who've never heard the gospel? I know some people say that they will be judged according to the light they have. Is this confirmed by your experience?
2) How can we be absolutely sure we're going to heaven? It seems that even many Christians will go to hell because they are not true Christians.
3) Could you tell me what Christian leaders you enjoy reading and hearing?
4) Have you checked out other NDEs/OBEs? What are your opinions on them?
Do you have a FAQ section on your site? I'm sure you get certain questions again and again.
Have a wonderful weekend.
Sincerely,
Jamie Kim
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Response: Hi Jamie Kim,
Sorry for the delay. My answer is rather long and it may lead to other questions and if it does, please ask and do not be shy. So for your first question:
1) What about people who've never heard the gospel? I know some people say that they will be judged according to the light they have. Is this confirmed by your experience?
Answer:
This is a complex issue with an easy answer. It is the fact that people try to avoid Christ that makes it complex. In Acts 17:22-34 it gives the account of Paul witnessing to the philosophers in Athens. There Paul says some rather interesting things such as recorded in Acts 17:25-26:
“The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place...” ESV
Compound this with God knowing and foreknowing all things you come to the conclusion that since God knows all things before anything ever was, he can place people where he so wills in the scheme of time accordingly. He can make nations out of like minded people in order to contain their influence or for many other things and purposes.
For example, God foreknows all people that will reject him before they were ever born; therefore, he could place at the beginning of time (when the world population was small) some of the most perverse people (note Genesis 6:1-3). Yet, God foreknows that some progeny in the far future generations would return to God on His terms (Ephesians 1:4-5 and Ephesians 2:2-10).
Since God knows all things with such grand knowledge of foreknowing all things then he can place whomever, whenever, and wherever he knows best. With this in mind, those that never heard the gospel will be judged: “19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.” Romans 1:19-20, ESV
The great commission came at a time when the world population was also small and humanity was most likely more brutish than humanity is today as evidence by ancient nations and cultures. As the gospel spread, people heard and lives changed. This is where we need to trust God who judges the living and the dead (Acts 10:42). His Judgment will be perfect and without fault. God looks at the heart not at outward appearances as we do. God will not make wrong judgments towards those who have never heard the gospel. How could he since he knows all things?
So to answer your question: it is quite probable that people who've never heard the gospel were placed in a time and place that God determined because God knows they would never respond to his call to return to him. So in mercy and love he granted them life and did not take that life away or deny it to them foreknowing that some of their progeny will one day be his. Romans chapter 1 speaks that God reveals himself in diverse ways but that people do not like to acknowledge God. So what light they have will judge them as it Romans1:19-32 describes:
We all are sinners and in need of salvation. “There is none righteous, no not one.” Romans 3:10. The only righteousness we have is what is imputed to us by God through the work of Christ on the cross. We can accept that or reject it: God so fair and just to offer a choice and awake us to this need in many diverse ways.
The problem people have is that we tend to think we are innocent and everyone should enter into heaven because people are not so bad. Problem with this line of thinking is that our mortal life experiences disprove how innocent we really are. If allowed in heaven without surrendering our whole life to God on his terms, now, in this life, we would make heaven like it is currently on earth.
I stated this before and it is worth repeating again here:
One last thing, in the book of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 it writes that in the last days there will be a great falling away from the faith. 1 Timothy 4:2 mentions during the same period of time that people’s conscience will be cauterized.
This appears the case today as evidenced by the acceptance by many people in the church and elsewhere stating that all religions lead to God and God will not hold anyone to account for various reasons. The problem with this attitude is that it actually is demanding God to acquiesce to man’s terms and demands his submission to humanity’s rule.
This is a form of divination in which people unknowingly use to summon God to do their will. It is a manner that actually rapes God’s love. When standing before the Lord, I saw I how had done so. God’s great love graciously makes the rain fall on both the just and unjust, gives life eternity, grants us freedom to reason, do what we want to, bestowed upon us dominion and intelligence and even some creative abilities, and what do we do with such gifts of Love?
People see God is very slow to anger at our misdeeds and humanities evil, yet, it is His great Love that constrains him from exterminating humanity and we see it not. From this we rape God’s love and misuse it for license to sin. People reason that God does not see, nor cares, or exists. The gifts of reason and intelligence given to us by his great Love are raped. The Love from God that bestowed dominion is perverted – raped as we mistreat each other and his creation.
God’s love is raped every time people mock God, lie, cheat, steal, justify adultery, misuse loves creative gift by making other things to worship and serve. Humanity rapes God’s love by misusing it and then people have the audacity to claim that because of God’s great love he will not hold anyone to account for such rape. His love is raped by such ideology.
How can the Lord God Almighty let such people into heaven who have proven by their personal mortal life course that they abuse his great Love? To let such enter heaven would make heaven into what it is like on earth now. This, God’s love will not allow. His great love will not annihilate anyone into non-being as that is not love but rather because of love prepared a place where the dominion of sin and death will rule as that is what people desire as proven by their rape of His Great Love. He promised and gave a gift of life. He keeps his word.
God’s Love sent Jesus, the Word, to call us back to him. Not calling to a lost humanity and providing choice (even though God foreknows our answers – he still calls to all) would not be an act of love. The Lord calls and since he does, this act of love grants us a choice to freely make. Without his call – there would be no choice. He calls all to return to him but not all will as they delight in raping God’s love for their benifit. However, for those that hear and repent of this, he forgives, purifies, and restores – love.
Take another look at the cross again and you’ll see how rebellion rapes God’s love being displayed by the acts / plans of the religious leaders, false witnesses, the trial, beating, etc & etc, and mocking of Christ. That is why we need to surrender by coming to Christ and have him purify us. The cross exposes our need. We must surrender to the Lord and return to his great love and shine it where we have been assigned.
John 3:16-21, 36, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God…"
36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” ESV
The Eastern Orthodox have a little prayer that I suggest we all pray: “Lord Jesus Christ, be merciful to me, a sinner.”
Don emailed me this question:
Hi, I am Jewish believer in the Messiah Yeshua! I heard you speak once that you were involved in the Messianic movement years ago and you gave a Jewish twist to the Doctrine of the Trinity during your testimony when you encountered the Lord of Glory!
As I see it, like you, that Jesus (Yeshua) is God, not another god. Jesus is not before God, because He is one aspect of God's character. Jews and Christians worship the same God. Yeshua said he was God, and he said that he was also the Son of Man. In Daniel the Messiah appears as one 'like a son of man'. Also, Jesus fulfilled just about every Messianic prophecy in the OT expect the returning ones. I know that Jesus (Yeshua) and YHWH are the same person. It makes me happy and jump for Joy! God exists in three persons - the Trinity. Yeshua is one of those persons.
I know the Trinity is hard to describe - can you describe this is your own words again for my fellow Jews who may not know the Messiah?
My response to Don:
You ask a tuff question. What you heard during my testimony was not in the book. When I encountered the Lord the Trinity was there! Now for any of God’s beloved Jewish people that happen to read this:
God is unlike all and there are none like him. Think of the undivided nature, character, and spirit (life/power) of God. God’s Nature has Character and is Spirit that has living dunamis. Three are separate yet undivided: One God in three persons. In fact the Hebrew scriptures do indeed teach the Trinity revealed in how the text translates the names for God.
One tragic fact is this: The Church persecuted the Jews for centuries. This anti-Semitism has pushed Jews to become anti-Christian in their theology. This has translated into many of their doctrines that are used to promote an oneness concept of God that in reality makes God comparable to a singular deity such as Zeus.
This may sound rather startling at first but think of it; the scriptures declare that none are like God so therefore how can God’s oneness be like any other? God has to be different. If not this would make God like any other false god; thus, it makes me wonder if the Jewish people are breaking the Torah without ever realizing it?
The Trinity preserves the uniqueness of God as unlike all others does it not? God is unlike all gods the bible proclaims. The undivided nature, character, and spirit (life/power) of God is revealed in the Hebrew Scriptures by use of various names and titles for God proves He is unlike other gods.
Think of it like this for your own understanding: God’s Nature has Character and holds life-dunamis. These three are separate - yet undivided and are one. Truly making God unlike all other gods (whom are false by the way).
Think of it further still. The Temple is now no more, the blood sacrificial system of the first covenant is now no more as the temple, it priesthood, and its ordinances are now no more. These may be attempted to be restored in a third temple built according to prophecy but the fact remains, this system has been done away with as too many parts necessary to legally restore this system are now no more in existence.
The bible speaks of a new Covenant. The only thing left is Jesus (Yeshua) as the initiator of the New Covenant as only His blood can cover sins. Jewish traditions do understand how blood covers sins from a perfect sacrifice. What would the perfect blood be from in order do away with sins and make one clean before God? Only one is perfect, is He not?
Think of God the Father representing the Nature of God, Yeshua the son is the Character of God expressed, and the (Rucah) Holy Spirit as the Life and power of God: One God unlike all others. How should God reveal himself so that we can look upon him and live as the scriptures proclaim? Yet the scriptures also declare if one looks upon God they’ll die too.
If you saw the totality of God – His Nature, you would die; however, if you look to His Character, you will live. God sent his son, whom is His very Character, so that those that look upon him will live. His Character expressed God’s great love and He was the perfect sacrifice for sins because he was the only one perfect. The Spirit gives newness of life so that we live in fulfillment of the New Covenant expressed in Jeremiah 31:31-34.
Therefore for the Jewish people who have not looked to the Savior this prophecy is still waiting to come to pass:
Zechariah 12:10, "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.” ESV
Yeshua is the Messiah!
Part One - Study from Psalms 88:
Introduction:
“Do you work wonders for the dead? Do the departed (shades) rise up to praise you? Selah 11 Is your steadfast love declared in the grave, or your faithfulness in Abaddon? 12 Are your wonders known in the darkness, or your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?” Psalms 88:10-12, ESV
Those that adhere to the doctrines of Annihilationism, Soul Sleep, and the various other forms of conditional immortality use bible verses from Psalms 88:10-12 as a proof text to bolster their assertions by simply connecting these to other verse such a Ecc 9:5-6, Isaiah 26:14, Isaiah 38:18 without regard to context the of scripture, or the continuity with other parts of the bible. In other words, one ‘leads the witness’ to reach a presupposed conclusion by stringing verses together all pulled out of context.
This is how error can become doctrine. For example, you can take the word translated ‘beat’ in our Bibles and connect all the passages that describe ‘beat / beating’ and teach that is okay to beat up anybody perceived as a fool as a justifiable act of God and then turn it into dogma.
Actually, in fact Psalms 88:10-12, Ecc 9:5-6, Isaiah 26:14, Isaiah 38:18, do not back up the assertions that the dead ‘cease to exist’ or support some form of ‘soul sleep’ as we shall soon see. There are other parts neglected in these bible chapters which annihilationist dogma fail to mention as well as a continued ignoring of the continuity with other bible passages related to the theme of the subject matter on the hereafter.
Another important note is that all languages of the world are sloppy. One word can be used in a variety of ways. You cannot lock a single definition to a word as concrete and unchanging in all cases it is used. Those that adhere to the doctrines of Annihilationism, Soul Sleep, and the various other forms of conditional immortality dogma do just that. They define a word in concrete terms without regard to how it is used in each case where it is used.
For example, such words translated destruction, ruin, destroyed, annihilate, perish, are all cemented to mean non-existence and nothing else. Here is an example of how we use the word annihilate. The Denver Broncos annihilated the Kansas City Chief’s during a Monday night football game. Funny, the Chief’s same players still exist and they all will play another game with another team the following week. If the team was annihilated, then all players should have died during the game and now be buried in their grave if ‘annihilate’ can only mean non-existences. You see how important it is to apply context to the meaning of a word?
To understand Psalms 88:10-12, one should first consider the writer’s frame of mind and also keep these verses in context with the rest of Psalm 88. Next, the context of Psalm 88 will also line up with other parts of the bible and thus paints a more accurate picture of what these passages mean (as we shall soon see) without any slight of hand.
In the next few post, I’ll point these out in a slow and methodical manner.
Part Two Study from Psalms 88:
The Writer
The writer of Psalms 88 wrote under great duress and was brought low to the point of despair. Why this occurred to the writer can be summed up in Psalms 107:10-14, 15-16, 43.
Psalms 107:10-20, 43, “Such as sat in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron - 11 Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the Most High. 12 Therefore He humbled their heart with travail, they stumbled, and there was none to help - 13 They cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and He saved them out of their distresses. 14 He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and broke their bands in sunder. 15 Let them give thanks unto the LORD for His mercy, and for His wonderful works to the children of men! 16 For He hath broken the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder. 17 Crazed because of the way of their transgression, and afflicted because of their iniquities - 18 Their soul abhorred all manner of food, and they drew near unto the gates of death - 19 They cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and He saved them out of their distresses; 20 He sent His word, and healed them, and delivered them from their graves. (‘their graves’ comes from two Hebrew words – meaning ‘to be Part of’ and ‘Pit’ (the Pit) – hence meaning ‘their part in the Pit.’ Also note that the bible does use the word ‘grave’ synonymously with ‘The Pit’ and the ‘abode of the dead’ as well as method of burial. Even more important to note is when later, Jesus, the eternal Logos, Word, came and brought healing that delivers us from the Pit)… 43 Whoso is wise, let him observe these things, and let them consider the mercies (lovingkindness) of the LORD.” JPS
The writer of Psalms 88 was going through such a trial when he wrote this Psalm and relates in this Psalm with those that had no part in the covenant with God and were numbered with those people (nations) that forgot God and whose part was in the Pit (Sheol) banished from God forever. Whatever the writer's sin was, he felt it numbered him with those that rejected God. He was in great duress to the point of utmost despair and wrote his feelings in a manner most human.
The writer eventually, through his trial of great suffering was learning about the loving-kindness of the Lord. Sometimes it takes suffering in order to strengthen faith in God and to be set free from the cause of the suffering. Sometimes hardship is used by the Lord to refine a person’s character with the goal of shedding human sin and doubt so one can trust in the Lord explicitly. Sometimes the only way God can wake up a person to there greatest need is through affliction in order to save their souls. The writer of Psalms 88 went through such a trial by being brought to the pangs of death in order to save him sin and death.
Job 33:16-30 speaks of this very thing:
"...then he (God) opens the ears of men and terrifies them with warnings, 17 that he may turn man aside from his deed and conceal pride from a man; 18 he keeps back his soul from the pit, his life from perishing by the sword. 19 "Man is also rebuked with pain on his bed and with continual strife in his bones, 20 so that his life loathes bread, and his appetite the choicest food. 21 His flesh is so wasted away that it cannot be seen, and his bones that were not seen stick out. 22 His soul draws near the pit, and his life to those who bring death.
“23 If there be for him an angel, a mediator, one of the thousand, to declare to man what is right for him, 24 and he is merciful to him, and says, 'Deliver him from going down into the pit; I have found a ransom; 25 let his flesh become fresh with youth; let him return to the days of his youthful vigor'; 26 then man prays to God, and he accepts him; he sees his face with a shout of joy, and he restores to man his righteousness.
“27 He sings before men and says: 'I sinned and perverted what was right, and it was not repaid to me. 28 He has redeemed my soul from going down into the pit, and my life shall look upon the light.'29 Behold, God does all these things, twice, three times, with a man, 30 to bring back his soul from the pit, that he may be lighted with the light of life." ESV - Job 33:16-30
Part Three - Study of Psalm 88:1-9
Verses 1 through 5
Let’s look at verses 1-9 of this Psalm because these verses define the meaning of verses 10-12 as well as points out clearly the meaning of the text. Let’s start by looking at the main points of verse 1-3:
Psalms 88:1-3, “…O LORD, God of my salvation; I cry out day and night before you. 2 Let my prayer come before you; incline your ear to my cry! 3 For my soul is full of troubles, and my life draws near to Sheol…” ESV
Psalms 88:1-3 describes the author’s soul being full of trouble and his life drawing near to Sheol. Sheol in the Old Testament refers to the abode of the dead and used synonymously with the Pit, Hell, Hades, Chambers of death, grave, etc. It is a place inhabited by ‘shades.’
This abode of the dead was where the shades reside (Shades represent what some people would term nowadays as the spirit of a human being or a departed Soul). The Old Testament does reference that departed souls /spirit remain cognizant and aware in the afterlife. This is important because it unlocks the meaning of Psalms 88 by remaining in continuity with the whole of scripture regarding the subject of the afterlife. For example:
Ezekiel 32:31 speaking what it is like in the Pit it says: "When Pharaoh sees them...." ESV
--- The bible reveals that Pharaoh is in this Pit as well as others and they do indeed see denoting living cognizance after death. Pharaoh was down there a long time when the Ezekiel wrote this ---
Ezekiel 32:21 in the KJV version closely follows the original Hebrew word order and reveals that those in the Pit speak: " The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.” KJV
Isaiah 14:9-10 also states: "Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you (Lucifer) when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you , all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations. 10 All of them will answer and say to you: 'You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!" RSV
---Those that go into the Pit do indeed hear, speak, and see denoting living cognizance after death. To ‘lie uncircumcised’ means these persons were not part of the covenant people of God and that these people now dwell with all peoples (nations) that forget God. (Please Note Pslam 9:17, "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." KJV)---
Job 26:5-6, "The shades tremble beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof. 6 The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction hath no covering." JPS
---The dead - shades - tremble - yes movement denotes a living cognizance after death---
Proverbs 21:16, "The man that strayeth out of the way of understanding shall rest in the congregation of the shades." JPS
---A congregation of the shades? How can this be if only one person is buried individually in their own burial grave?---
These are just a few bible passages that show that after dying people do indeed go to a different realm and are thus not soul sleeping or annihilated into non-being but are indeed alive in some form where they are gathered together.
Now look at Psalms 88:4-5: “I am counted among those who go down to the pit; I am a man who has no strength, 5 like one set loose among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, like those whom you remember no more, for they are cut off from your hand.” ESV
These verses are very revealing and the biblical symbolism is profoundly simple to understand. Notice the writer says he is like one counted among those who go down into the pit, like one set loose among the dead. Like the slain that God remembers no more and ‘are’ cut off from Him forever.
To gain better insight on what the writer is conveying, you need to ask yourself – Are there specific bible verses that describe those counted among those go down into the Pit and who are cut off from the Lord set loose among the dead? (who are they?) It is easy to build verses one upon each other to build a doctrine, it is another matter to have scripture answer and itself in clear correlations and themes without contradictions.
We shall see in Part Four...
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